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View Full Version : Thinking of coming back to German - Porsche or BMW?


Deep 3.2TL
09-22-2011, 01:59 AM
Gents,

Many of you know of my horrible experience with a first model year of the E46's. I won't be making that same mistake.

I'm looking for a summer toy - I've narrowed it down to either a 2008ish Z4 or a 2007 Porsche Boxster (S or non-S, doesn't bother me).

The question is - theres alot of fear mongering about the IMS on the Porsche causing catastrophic failures of the engine. I don't think it's as bad as the Internet reads, but who knows.

I wanted to find out from Z4 owners what the common issues are with them and if there was anything to watch for.

I will be going manual tranny this time around.

Any insight is appreciated. I know there are Porsche aficionados here as well - any insight into the Porsche would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Deep

JJJames
09-22-2011, 02:27 PM
Congrats on returning from the dark side. I can't speak to the merits of the Z4, but have experience with the Boxster and Porsche's generally.

Back in the day, our garage contained an E36 M3, and a Boxter S. Both different, (to be honest I preferred the M3 as an all rounder), but for a fun summer car, the Boxster is much sharper and more responsive (though no faster). The mid-engined layout meant extraordinary balance, and the engine loves to rev. More importantly, the Porsche was bulletproof - through 5 years and about 75000 kms, there was not one issue - regular services and tires - that's it - and its not as though it wasn't being driven hard (two kids actually learned to drive stick on that car, so the clutch endured a lot).

Currently the cars have been upgraded to an E46 M3 (ZHP) and a 911 Turbo, and again, the Porsche has not presented a single issue (despite a few track days) beyond regular service and tires (though its only run about 70 000 kms). Porsche builds cars to last, and more than that, are built to be thrashed, regularly, and soldier on. (Just make sure you don't miss a service - then all bets are off).

Either choice would be fine I'm sure, but if it were my money, I'd be heading straight to Porsche.

Hope this helps.


Edit: none of the above comments apply to the Cayenne - step mother had one a few years back and other than the Mercedes ML, it was the worst car I've ever come across.

Deep 3.2TL
09-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Hrrm Interesting.

There's seems to be alot of chatter on the boards and what not of RMS (Rear Main Seal) and IMS (Intermediate Shaft) failured, the later being catastrophic if it happens. The 996 with the M96 engine suffered from this as well as the 986. When they moved to the 987, it was said to be fixed, but there are still some reports of it happening.

What opinion, if any, do you have on what is being talked about out there?

If you google 996 porsche problems, you will see the threads I'm talking about. You can also google 986 porsche problems and similar will show.

Thanks for your response!

MrRWD
09-23-2011, 08:32 AM
I was in the same boat, and got a 996 Porsche 911 4S - One owner car from Paff Porsche.

Apart from the Rear Main Seal problem, then have a bearing problem as well.
It's a design flaw, which causes the engine to go boom... without notice. The older Porsche's are better in this regard, except for the crazy amount of oil leaks. The bearing design flaw, should have been a recall.

They also eat clutches. When you do a clutch job, they recommend to change the fly wheel as well. $4K or so for the job. Been there, done that....

You'll see a lot of 911's with New Engines under warranty, when you are looking (if disclosed). This is probably because of the bearing problem or the rear main seal.

I actually witnessed a newer 996 let got its magic smoke. Older gentlemen driving, so probably one owner and driven carefully.

... pretty disappointing.

Sent mine through the Auction.

I hate to say it, but a BMW Z4 is probably a better choice. More reliable....at least more manageable repair bills. My Cats on the 911 went, both of them... $3K... lucky to find a used ones (fairly new) for $1200.00

MrRWD
09-23-2011, 08:37 AM
Porsche builds cars to last, and more than that, are built to be thrashed, regularly, and soldier on. (Just make sure you don't miss a service - then all bets are off).

Either choice would be fine I'm sure, but if it were my money, I'd be heading straight to Porsche.


Oh boy... I just read that the 997's are having engine problems as well.
It's quite known that the 996's have engine failures. If you're getting a used one, I'd say you'd almost want one that had it's engine replaced under warranty....

A owner of a car dealership I was talking to.. about my issues... he's had many porsche's. Currently has 3. The 911 Turbo, he's had since new. The 911 Targa, and the 4S, costs him a lot more money, once they reach 90K or so...

Warned me... not everyone has $8-10K every year to spend on stupid repairs.... he doesn't care... but be warned he said.....

Still loves the car.... but... they are not cheap to maintain when things go wrong.

jeremy
09-23-2011, 08:39 AM
Out of the two you listed Deep, I would pick the M clown shoe :D

Coupedup
09-23-2011, 10:06 AM
I have almost bought the boxster on several occasions and have read extensively on the IMS issues.... from what I understand the majority of the IMS issues are on the pre- 2003 cars....

Even back in 2003 Porsche refused to admit there were problems and customers replaced their engines and encountered the same issues with rear main seals..... engine after engine after engine. I believe each one is approx $6K with zero help from Porsche. This is one of the reasons you see Boxsters with LS1 swaps....

Another thing to think about is that as the car is mid-engined its a bitch to service so you'll be paying bigtime for the novelty. If you do pull the trigger I reccomend HUNTER MOTORSPORTS (near sherway) as a possible indy shop of choice...

MrRWD
09-23-2011, 10:51 AM
It does extend well past the 2003 models... even the new 997's have the issue.

If the RMS goes, you've probably have a bigger problem with the engine. The bearings (design flaw) are going, causing the crank to make the seal more "oval".

Since I had the RMS done at the first sign of oil leak, I assume the motor would eventually go pop.....

The Turbo cars are much better. They are based on the old air-cooled motors, and don't seem to have this problem.

I'd never want to own a Turbo car, but in this case, a Porsche 911 Turbo would have been a better choice.

Deep 3.2TL
09-23-2011, 12:00 PM
Yes, the Turbo's have a different engine, they've been more reliable.

The IMS (intermediate shaft) is what evetually gives you the "shaft" and pooches your engine.

I think I've decided to go clown shoe on this one... Jeremy - I'd LOVE to go M - I test drove a 2007 Z4M with 17k KM's on it a couple of days ago - loved it, but this price was too much - $44K. I'm trying to stay $25K range, which my brother in law (owns a used car dealership) says is doable for a 2007 Z4 with 50-75k KM's.

He's going to see over the winter if anything comes up at auction, as it may go cheaper during that time.

Apparently not alot of manual's out there. Plus my desire is to get Alpine White with the Imola Red interior - HAWT!!! Don't know if we'll find one like that...

Fingers crossed that I'll be driving roofless next summer!

Any Z4 owners know of any common problems?

Deep 3.2TL
09-25-2011, 11:41 PM
No one with Z4 have any comments??

ChrisTO
09-26-2011, 09:33 AM
chick car... :P

Blades
09-26-2011, 10:39 AM
No one with Z4 have any comments??

Another thing to add which I havent noticed anyone else put in here about the boxer is that for any little work you need to drop the engine to work on it because of where its located (Mid sitting engine) and the amount of space.

I think someone told me that you need to drop the engine just to change the oil filter but I could be wrong.


As for the Z4 I haven't heard any complaints .. But not many people own them on here .. hence why I never really see them at bimmercruise

Deep 3.2TL
09-26-2011, 11:06 AM
chick car... :P



Real constructive Chris *shiner*

So what would you suggest for a TRUE summer style car in this mid $20K price range?

I don't want a 3 series or something that is not truely a roadster style of car.

Deep 3.2TL
09-26-2011, 11:08 AM
Another thing to add which I havent noticed anyone else put in here about the boxer is that for any little work you need to drop the engine to work on it because of where its located (Mid sitting engine) and the amount of space.

I think someone told me that you need to drop the engine just to change the oil filter but I could be wrong.


As for the Z4 I haven't heard any complaints .. But not many people own them on here .. hence why I never really see them at bimmercruise

Yup - My brother in law was telling me that too - so one of the reasons why I will most likely (unless some CRAZY deal comes my way) stay away from the Porsche.

I too haven't been seeing much negative comments about the Z4 except for the convertible motor and the power steering (alot of BMW's have that issue). Apart from that, it's been fairly solid it looks like.

ChrisTO
09-27-2011, 12:00 AM
oh...constructive. *smoke*

yes maintenance on the boxster is not cheap. be prepared for deep pockets or know someone that is willing to work on it for you. i believe the oil filter is up on top...at least the 2010 model is. many things do require an engine drop.

i think the boxster is a far better drive than the z4...it just feels more alive or visceral...but there is that pesky cost to maintain.

there is the TT...it's very different.

find out cost to maintain the boxster...i'd go with that one instead of the z4 unless you can get the MZ4 but probably not in the price range you are looking for.

Real constructive Chris *shiner*

So what would you suggest for a TRUE summer style car in this mid $20K price range?

I don't want a 3 series or something that is not truely a roadster style of car.

Deep 3.2TL
09-27-2011, 12:22 AM
oh...constructive. *smoke*

yes maintenance on the boxster is not cheap. be prepared for deep pockets or know someone that is willing to work on it for you. i believe the oil filter is up on top...at least the 2010 model is. many things do require an engine drop.

i think the boxster is a far better drive than the z4...it just feels more alive or visceral...but there is that pesky cost to maintain.

there is the TT...it's very different.

find out cost to maintain the boxster...i'd go with that one instead of the z4 unless you can get the MZ4 but probably not in the price range you are looking for.

I did look at the TT - there weren't a lot of drop tops out there - that's a big requirement for me. I've always wanted a convertible.

I completely agree about the Porsche. I love the on-the-rails like handling it has. But - and this is a big but for me - I do not deal with surprise major expenses very well. The porsche has a history of problems with the RMS and IMS, even in the newer ones (less so, but still there). With BMW - I know I will have to do fixes here and there - but I highly doubt I'll need to replace my entire engine, which is a possibility with the IMS issue.

I'm gonna see if I can find a TT to test drive. The other problem with the TT is that many years ago, I checked one out and I couldn't even extend my legs in the car - my knees were up in the steering wheel. Hopefully the newer models are different.

ChrisTO
09-27-2011, 12:28 AM
presume you looked at Lotus? not within budget?

i still maintain Trex would make a great summer car....if it was road legal in ON.

Deep 3.2TL
09-27-2011, 12:34 AM
Lotus? In the $20's? No way - not for anything remotely newer. I don't want to buy too old a car with a ton of problems.

The Elise looks... interesting... I don't know how I feel about that. It would turn heads, that for sure...

Even the TT - I'm not sure I like the way the car looks...

damameke
09-27-2011, 01:45 PM
Another option S2000, I own a 2001 Z3 Roadster and have no issue, i did look at the
Z4, but somehow the Z3 body won over the 4, unless you want a 2009 Z4 with steel hardtop..(over the $20 of course)

Deep 3.2TL
09-27-2011, 02:01 PM
Another option S2000, I own a 2001 Z3 Roadster and have no issue, i did look at the
Z4, but somehow the Z3 body won over the 4, unless you want a 2009 Z4 with steel hardtop..(over the $20 of course)

Funny you mention the S2000 - I went to see one today. That thing is smaller then a can of sardines. I LITERALLY twisted my hip getting out of it and now it hurts when I step!! Nope - that won't be on my books...

Really about the Z3? I was never a fan of the Z3 styling, I perferred the Z4 myself.

noodles101
09-27-2011, 04:33 PM
lol...i dont know much about porsche but purely on exterior prospective , z4 wins over the porsche boxter in my opinion.

Deep 3.2TL
09-27-2011, 04:39 PM
lol...i dont know much about porsche but purely on exterior prospective , z4 wins over the porsche boxter in my opinion.

The Porsche is awesome on handling - breaking that thing free is a hard task. It handles like it's on rails.

That being said - I'm not throwing my car around corners all day long, so do I really need that kind of handling...

The last one I have to check out is the TT - Once I've done that, I think I'll be settled that Z4 is the way to go...

noodles101
09-27-2011, 04:44 PM
the 1.8T is pretty garrrbage. you should look at the 3.2 litre quattro if anything.

Deep 3.2TL
09-27-2011, 04:47 PM
At this point, I'm more concerned about how the car feels, etc. Once I like that, then I'll worry about which engine - but you're right, no 4 banger here...

ChrisTO
09-27-2011, 06:22 PM
TT is also FWD...

either BMW Zs will be less prone to surprises unless it's a lemon of a used car.

P car is a bit of a crap shoot...some are perfectly fine...

azn_oo1
09-28-2011, 09:27 AM
i have a 06 z4. if you think the s2000 is small the z4 isnt any better. its really low to the ground and isnt made for tall people.

Deep 3.2TL
09-28-2011, 12:06 PM
i have a 06 z4. if you think the s2000 is small the z4 isnt any better. its really low to the ground and isnt made for tall people.

I fit fine in the Z4 and the Boxster. When the S2000 door closed, it actually pushed me into the car.

I've driven the Z4 and Boxster. The S2000 I didn't even attempt to as it was too cramped for my legs to use the pedals. I did not have a problem with the other two.

That being said, it was a little tight. I don't mind that as it'll give me incentive to lose some weight!! :D

ChrisTO
09-28-2011, 11:31 PM
That being said, it was a little tight. I don't mind that as it'll give me incentive to lose some weight!! :D

damn was going to have fun with that... *wiggle*

Lotus would be perfect...toyota engine...must be super reliable. shame about the prices. guess their rarity keeps the prices up.

Deep 3.2TL
09-28-2011, 11:35 PM
damn was going to have fun with that... *wiggle*

Lotus would be perfect...toyota engine...must be super reliable. shame about the prices. guess their rarity keeps the prices up.

I know I gotta drop it - just need the right motivation!

Yea - The Lotus would have been interesting... Not sure I'd want to keep up with maintenance. My bro in law's had some in his time - Esprits, etc. and he said they were alright, but when they had problems, big dollars...

ChrisTO
09-29-2011, 11:54 PM
Esprits yes are real headaches...i don't believe the issues persist with the Elise or Exige as the engine are from Toyota...same ones you find in Corollas. And the trannies are from Honda...though I'm not sure Honda makes great trannies.

the rest is body work and other annoyances but not the typical major powertrain issues found in the Esprit.

just down to capital cost.

Deep 3.2TL
09-30-2011, 12:00 AM
Yea, perhaps - I don't even know if I would fit in that thing - looks tiny... Either way, cost puts it out of the picture...

Sat in a 2009 Z4 today with the new hard top convertible. More space inside then the previous gen - I like it! Now to try and find one in the price range... not sure if that'll happen...

damameke
09-30-2011, 08:27 AM
2009 Z4 in your $25K price range..even with your bro-in-law's help
not going to happen.....

The lowest listing price is around $39,990..

Deep 3.2TL
09-30-2011, 08:43 AM
2009 Z4 in your $25K price range..even with your bro-in-law's help
not going to happen.....

The lowest listing price is around $39,990..

Never know - could get lucky. He picked up one last year for $32k.

There are deals that come along from time to time. He got me my MDX for about $10k less then the market price.

I'm not holding my breath - it's a long shot. But it's a shot nontheless.

Blades
09-30-2011, 10:56 AM
Saturn sky with a body kit *shiner*

propr'one
09-30-2011, 11:13 AM
deep, hold out for the S54 z4. You wont be dissapointed.

Deep 3.2TL
09-30-2011, 11:17 AM
Saturn sky with a body kit *shiner*

You know what - I loved the way those looked... but tiny as SHIT inside. My knees where IN the steering wheel when I sat in one years ago...

Deep 3.2TL
09-30-2011, 11:18 AM
deep, hold out for the S54 z4. You wont be dissapointed.

Yea... That's what I'm thinking - but we'll see...

Z4MC
10-04-2011, 10:13 PM
I'm happy with my s54 m coupe. No problems at all and a very soild build. Lively back end as well if you feel like having some fun and spirited driving.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6192321996_647cbe624d_b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6008/6190379507_bf921a072a_b.jpg

Deep 3.2TL
10-04-2011, 10:18 PM
What I need is THAT ^^^ with a drop top - Then I'll be one happy camper!

Deep 3.2TL
10-29-2011, 03:20 AM
I did it!! 2007 Z4 3.0si with about 35K km's on the clock - my bro in law STOLE this one for me at auction. Just passed inspection for all major mechanical with the auction how - waiting for it to come in so we can do the complete one. Should be here next week!

Z4MC
10-29-2011, 09:13 AM
any pictures...how much did you pay?

Deep 3.2TL
10-29-2011, 12:53 PM
no pics yet - waiting for the car to come in (I just have the auction house pics, not the greatest) it's black on black, I really wanted the red interior, but I wasn't going to be picky based on the price.

I really don't want to post the price as it's auction costs (my brother in laws costs), but it's well under market value - I'll say that much.

damameke
10-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Congrats. obviously its cheaper getting auction pricing...

Deep 3.2TL
10-30-2011, 03:59 PM
^^^ Yea - I really wasn't going to do it unless we found a deal - I don't NEED this car, so to pay regular price would have been foolish...

Brian325is
10-30-2011, 06:46 PM
As an owner of a 2000 Boxster S, I would still vote for the Porsche. Yes I am nervous about the IMS problem but sometimes these things are blown a little out of proportion. There is a fix available, part costs about $500 and it is a good idea to fix it if you do a clutch job as you are allready in there. As for fun to drive there is no comparison between the Porsche and BMW. Two different cars, one more sports and handling oriented and one more grand touring. Your choice of what you want. Also you do not need to drop the engine for any service that I am aware of. I have changed oil, air filter, spark plugs, and belt by using the axcess holes on top and behind the seats.

Ps. Did I mention the sound of the Porsche, especially if you remove the intake snorkel.

Deep 3.2TL
10-30-2011, 08:11 PM
As an owner of a 2000 Boxster S, I would still vote for the Porsche. Yes I am nervous about the IMS problem but sometimes these things are blown a little out of proportion. There is a fix available, part costs about $500 and it is a good idea to fix it if you do a clutch job as you are allready in there. As for fun to drive there is no comparison between the Porsche and BMW. Two different cars, one more sports and handling oriented and one more grand touring. Your choice of what you want. Also you do not need to drop the engine for any service that I am aware of. I have changed oil, air filter, spark plugs, and belt by using the axcess holes on top and behind the seats.

Ps. Did I mention the sound of the Porsche, especially if you remove the intake snorkel.

Agreed - I love the sound of the porsche. Everything I was reading about the IMS was scaring me and I haven't had the best of luck when it comes to "potential" problems. "potential" problems seem to find my car. AFAIK, the IMS problem is a lot more then $500 to fix (assuming you are not doing a clutch job).

I wouldn't call the Z4 "grand touring" - that's going a bit overboard. The Boxster definitely has GREAT handling, but the Z4 is no slouch either. And really speaking - when am I going to have a chance to "throw" my car around corners... near never...

I've chosen the Z4 - it's coming this week. I liked the idea of the Porsche, just not the expense. Maybe for the next go around...

ChrisTO
10-30-2011, 10:22 PM
damn congrats!

Deep 3.2TL
11-05-2011, 01:39 AM
****ING HELL boys...

Picked it up today - I've HAD A BLAST in it...

The car was even better then expected.

We thought the Auction house put the Miles as KM's when they listed it at 22K, but it's ACTUALLY KM's. This thing's barely broken in!!

Drives mint, no rattles, etc.

There was one disappointment - even though it's rare, this one is a manual top. For a minute, I was upset, then I realized I'd never have a roof motor to replace, so that disappointment turned into a blessing in disguise.

the chrome metal trim inside is completely unmolested, no scratches at all.

One small door ding to speak of and a couple of stone chips, but nothing major.

Im in HEAVEN!

Now for upgrades... No wait... Stop... I JUST bought the thing... LOL....

cormier
11-05-2011, 06:58 AM
Where are the pictures already!!
:p congrats on the buy

damameke
11-05-2011, 01:32 PM
I cant believe a 2007 is still using manual top...

Lower it and space it out at StanceFactory, thats it...

My 2001 Z3 3.0i with auto top is asleep now..

Deep 3.2TL
11-05-2011, 02:47 PM
I know... crazy! But you know, I think I like the manual top. It takes no trunk space and no motor to worry about... and **** that! My baby will stay out until I see a forecast for snow!

Deep 3.2TL
11-05-2011, 02:56 PM
Some crappy cell phone pics from when it was being detailed at my bro in law's dealership and a couple from my driveway.

billyr3d
11-11-2011, 08:07 PM
Here you go turbomroadster (http://turbomroadster.webs.com)

Camm
04-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Hey Deep, Enjoyed reading the thread. How do you like the Z4 still? I had been seriously torn last year between Z4, Boxster or Cayman. Ended up getting a Z4 Coupe. It has been spectacular.

Deep 3.2TL
04-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Loving the car! I've only put about 4500 km's since I got it in October, but we were in colder months and I didn't drive it when there was a hint of snow or salt laying on the road. I've been driving it close to daily for the last month or so.

Here's an updated pic with some upgrades

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149635

I've done the Roadster Solutions WindJammer windscreen (BIG difference!) and 18" M6 Rep Rims. I have HID's to install (was baffled why it didn't come with them) for headlamps and fogs (3000k yellow for fogs) - which might get done today.

Headed over to Stance Factory today to do an oilchange and get the CDV removed. Might do some other stuff after I talk with them.

I'm not going to do any engine work or anything like that. I just don't want to deal with the potential problems that you get when you do engine upgrades. I'll stick to cosmetic. 265 horse is enough for the 3,000 lbs car. I mean, who wouldn't want more - but it's just not worth the hassle to me!

I really wanted a roadster - my dream was to have a true summer car (didn't have a specific one in mind, just true roadster). I had some chances to get cars that weren't exactly what I wanted, but stopped. If it didn't meet all the things I wanted from fulfilling this desire, there was no point in spending the money as I wouldn't be 100% happy with it.

VERY glad to say I held out. I got a great deal on the car, which will hopefully let me get this out of my system after 2-3 years and selling it with minimal loss.

How are you enjoying yours? When did you get it? And welcome to the board!

Deep

Camm
04-19-2012, 10:14 AM
I got mine April of last year. It love the little car and actually call it the mini-supercar. I havent done any modifications, because i dont think it needs any and the 265hp is more than good enough. I think it is probably stiffer than the roadster due to the hard top. Honestly, whether due to the hardtop or whatever, it is loud and sounds like a mini DB9.

I had the same feeling as you that i didnt want to compromise on any of the options i truly wanted. I was lucky to find the perfect car from BMW in California, so had them ship it. I love the look of it and being ultra rare, the attention it gets is amusing.

Where are you at? I am organizing a premium car club called Cars and Cappuccinos. we are doing our first meet in Etobicoke, at the Tim Horton, near Kipling subway station, on Sun, May 6th @ 9 am. I am expecting only 10 -15 cars, but it should be a very nice collection :)

If you are on facebook, here is the club link:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cars-and-Cappuccinos

Deep 3.2TL
04-19-2012, 10:29 AM
good stuff!

Dude 9AM on a sunday?? Is you crazy? :)

azn_oo1
04-19-2012, 07:14 PM
does that wind screen really help? I have the same one, and i dont really feel any difference.

and 19s makes the ride so harsh stay away from them LOL

Deep 3.2TL
04-19-2012, 07:29 PM
does that wind screen really help? I have the same one, and i dont really feel any difference.

and 19s makes the ride so harsh stay away from them LOL

Yup - I heard that, so I picked up 18" M6 reps.

I really notice the difference in colder weather. When you have the heat on, it acts like a back window and brings the air back. It doesn't stop the wind (shouldn't have a convertible if you don't like wind, right?? :) ) but I find it's more comfortable at 10 degrees. For example, the last few days, I've been driving to work in the morning with the top down, no problems...

Z4MC
04-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Looks great with the new wheels! Glad you finally found a nice one. I have had mine out for the past month and love it!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/dubsesd_lucca/ALUFRONT-1.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/dubsesd_lucca/ALUMAN.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/dubsesd_lucca/ALUBACK.jpg

Deep 3.2TL
04-19-2012, 09:26 PM
Love the look of your stance!!

crusher
04-20-2012, 12:28 PM
Looks great with the new wheels! Glad you finally found a nice one. I have had mine out for the past month and love it!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/dubsesd_lucca/ALUFRONT-1.jpg


Sweet beast. I've seen a few around my area in Vaughan.

Camm
04-24-2012, 08:11 AM
good stuff!

Dude 9AM on a sunday?? Is you crazy? :)

LOL.. dude, that's cause of the Ball & Chain obligations for some guys.*mumble*


Z4MC: Nice one!!!!

Deep 3.2TL
04-24-2012, 09:30 AM
I've a wife and 2 kids and I ain't pulling off 9am on a Sunday :-) that's papa's sleep in day!

Camm
04-24-2012, 10:21 AM
Hahahaha *th-up*... I may change the time to 9:30 anyway. We'll be there for a couple hours. Come out if you can *rockout*

slemmer
04-24-2012, 04:47 PM
I'd be making the turn to the tenth tee at 9 am, early to bed and early to rise!