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Bullet Ride
04-11-2011, 09:13 AM
BMW is well known for their rear wheel drive cars as well as for their M division. The next generation M5 sedan might be equipped with AWD (All Wheel Drive) which will represent a first for the model.

At this moment, there are two M badged models that use all-wheel drive systems, the X5 M and the X6 M, but otherwise the M division is rear-wheel drive friendly. The German automaker is looking to expand its M cars on the U.S. market and, as a consequence, the new M5 will most definitely have an AWD system available as an option.

Albert Biermann, BMW Ms head of R&D, stated: There will be some all-wheel-drive surprises on M cars in the future. There werent any release dates confirmed for the launch of an M5 AWD sedan, but we know that the production rear-wheel drive M5 version will be on display at the Frankfurt Motor Show later this year.

The AWD system will undoubtedly add more kilos to the total weight of the car, but 0-62 mph (0-100 km/h) acceleration should remain under the 5 seconds barrier.

source: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/awd-for-bmws-m-range-34022.html

MBrown
04-15-2011, 10:56 AM
wow, built for life in Canada?

i kid, i kid :rolleyes:

Mpellizze30
04-25-2011, 11:04 AM
somethings gota compete with that rs6 glad to hear this!

Mpellizze30
04-25-2011, 11:06 AM
twin turbo v10 would be awsome too

dble Trouble
05-04-2011, 12:10 AM
somethings gota compete with that rs6 glad to hear this!

In what way other than acceleration on a slippery surface does a rwd not only compete but obliterate an awd??? I'd like to know.

Mpellizze30
05-04-2011, 12:40 AM
heres how the current m5 does against the rs6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaVTdqsPLk
and have u ever herd of the bugatti veyron, the fastest car in the world? its awd, i love my e30 but awd doesnt spin it sticks, it doesnt go sideways in corners and you have more traction in every situation u could possibly think of. i live in canada where awd is key for a year round yuppie car, my old man has had m6's m5's 540's 740's m3's and the best everyday car he has every bought as much as it hurts to say is the s6 he just got before the winter, he has the m3 for fun in the summer but that s6 rocks as a year round cruiser and in our last trip out east around xmas it was unbelieveable. Im sure the 740 he used to have would have been ok but there nothing like that awd confidence.
If your talking track car id prefer rwd personally but its hard to argue when u see the bugatti go up against the zonda.

dble Trouble
05-04-2011, 12:50 AM
I think you need to stop watching youtube videos and go to a performance driving school to learn about vehicle dynamics. Friction, grip, handling, etc. Acceleration is one thing, on slick surfaces. But on dry surfaces, like for like an awd will get smoked by it's rwd counterpart. Look at the 911 turbo and the 911 GT2 for example. Or BMW 328 awd to rwd. The video you posted shows an RS6 with 80 more hp and over 100 ft/lbs of torque advantage over the M5, very similar weight, yet only beat it by a couple of car lengths. Thank-you very much for that useless video.

Now though take those same two cars around a turn, or braking??? Exactly. You have to stop getting swayed by all of the mktg types that are telling you awd is better for you etc. 1 advantage and ONLY advantage is slick accelerating. That's it. Everything else is better as awd. Why do you think all of the best super performance cars are rwd??? And you mention the Veyron, don't make me laugh, that car is notoriously known for ill handling and braking. It is a one trick pony and that's top speed. Even acceleration it gets smoked by most super cars to 150mph, only after that does it start to show its 1000 hp. But around a road course it got beat by Mclaren F1, Enzo, 911 GT2, Corvette ZR1 etc.

If you're willing to learn, I could show, and teach you. No sarcasm here. I'm serious. But you have to be willing to learn.

Mpellizze30
05-04-2011, 12:59 AM
Im very willing but those cars u mention dont do 0-60 in 1.9 seconds. it is the fastest production car to date. When i finish my car i will be going to the track with an open mind and im very willing to learn. i do realize every race car from f1 to nascar is rwd, and i get the weight thing but i just dont see how rwd can handle like awd, look at the top gear board the only car that beats the veyron round a track is an f1 car.

dble Trouble
05-04-2011, 01:13 AM
awd is not what makes a car handle better. Think about it for a second. When a tire is trying to turn and you apply the brakes near the limit of grip it starts to understeer. Why? Because the amount of grip available to the tire at that time is being divided into two. It's trying to steer in another direction and trying to brake at the same time. So traction is compromised in both scenarios. Same deal applies to turning into a corner, an awd car will have more of a tendency to understeer, much like a fwd car as the front wheels are connected to the driveline delivering power to the front as well as starting to steer, then as you exit a turn and start putting the power down, again you'll understeer wide, so you'd have to apply only partial throttle until the car is almost straight, then you could apply full throttle, whilst the rwd car has been applying power down since the apex. That would equal roughly a car length in just one turn, and if that turn is feeding a long straight then that distance gets multiplied. The Veyron is not the quickest car on the leader board of Top Gear anymore the Ariel Atom toppled it, and it is a rwd, and there were two quicker cars which couldn't count because they were not using DOT tires, the Ferrari Fxx and the Ultima GTR both of which are rwd. The reason the Bugatti is there is because that track is more of a power track than a handling track and there are many long straights where the Bugatti could use it's enormous power to it's advantage.

But you are using a rather extreme example here. Let's talk more about realistic cars like the Audi A4 2.0t vs. the 328. No contest. Comparisons like that could go on and on for days.

Dynamically speaking rwd>awd>fwd in a performance environment. Although IMO I'd rather have fwd over awd. I've driven A4's with and with awd and I found the fwd ones much livelier, again due to weight advantages. In the snow, I've never heard of anyone that uses snow tires to have a problem with the rwd. And if anyone does, there's usually a reason behind it, inexperience, driving to fast for the conditions, worn out snows etc.

Come to Mosport on June 4 and 5, and I'll take you around to show you the difference. www.trillium-bmwclub.ca for details about the w/e.

dble Trouble
05-04-2011, 01:15 AM
Another thing about the top gear board, all of the cars behind the Veyron are within about 3 seconds of it are giving up 400-500hp to the Veyron and still manage to stick with it.....

Mpellizze30
05-04-2011, 02:06 PM
great info thx alot! Im getting a few things done to my car including some bodywork so if its done in time ill be there for sure! i wana see what this s50b32 can do at the track. Do i have to register or anything? My old man might come too hes got a e46 m3 dinan stage 2 and ive kinda been hasseling him to race me for a while lol. i would think id be able to take him with the weight difference and i should be making close to the same power as he is with similar mods, but his car feels alot faster for whatever reason. He has also done a bunch of driving schools at mosport so he knows that track pretty well by now which im sure will be the biggest difference.
thx
Mike

Mpellizze30
05-07-2011, 12:50 PM
checked out that link sounds like the same days budds bmw is going is that right? Gregor offerd me n my old man a spot but i think he had an issue those days. I would love to go but i remember it beeing pricey and im not sure how much im going to have to fork out for this bodywork yet i guess it depends if my cars ready and if i have the loot, but i would love to go!

SamE30e
05-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Symetrical AWD... Win

MarkD
05-08-2011, 12:54 PM
In what way other than acceleration on a slippery surface does a rwd not only compete but obliterate an awd??? I'd like to know.

Have you tried an X5M on dry roads? I have, and it's amazing. Just mash the gas pedal and it launches forward with no wheelspin. You can also drive it around corners aggressively. It makes it easy for the average driver to do.

I think it's an improvement over the RWD models even in the dry.

dble Trouble
05-08-2011, 08:35 PM
I did not have the opportunity to try the X5M but did have the chance to try an X6M and not impressed at all, RWD would have made me happier. Have you tried a 550 rwd? That thing with the traction and stability off still had a tonne of traction and no drama.

noodles101
05-08-2011, 10:01 PM
have u guys watched the top gear video??
2010 m3 vs RS4 vs C63 amg?
on the track....

C63 - fastest in a straight line ( mercs cant corner cuz of too many gizmos on board)

audi RS4- understeers like crazyyyy cant turn at all at high speed

M3 - not as fast as the C63 but with electronic LSD + rear wheel drive + perfect geometry wins !

but yes i understand most ppl do not track their cars that often and its only once in a while.

and yes i do drive a 328is and in winter i always always see all these quatro cars owning in heavy snow where i can barely go up a snowy hill.

ive driven my buddys 2009 audi RS4 in snow, and i cud not belive how much control u have , u can still whip the back out but u have FULL control over the car even at high speeds.

so in my opinion, all wheel drive cars are better for canada if ur gunna drive summer + winter .

BUTTTT, i have a rwd car, hella fun cornering , the ' OH SHIT' feeling u get every time u bang corners / whip the back out a little is still the best feeling in the world. lolll

dble Trouble
05-08-2011, 11:03 PM
^^I agree with almost everything you said except for living in Canada and driving one car through all seasons. How many times does it actually snow in the GTA? 10 if you're lucky. Main roads are cleared within half a day of the snow stopping. From that point on, it's just cold. So for 10 days a year you're going to purchase a vehicle that is better, yet is worse for the other 355 days of that year??? I don't get it. Really, I just don't get it.

Quick recap

awd vs rwd

awd is worse l/100km
worse braking in grippy or slippery surfaces
worse handling in grippy or slippery surfaces
worse accelerating on grippy surfaces
more $ to purchase
more $ to maintain

awd is better at accelerating in slippery surfaces

Although most of the time I do make references to performance at the track, (as this is what's important to me) in this case i'm taking into account that over 99% of people do not track their cars. Yet awd/4wd still doesn't make sense unless you live in Vermont, Colorado, BC mountaineous areas, etc

davericher20
05-08-2011, 11:19 PM
worse accelerating on grippy surfaces


I'm pretty sure my launch control would smoke you.







































but then after my t-case failed you'd pass me.

noodles101
05-09-2011, 12:03 AM
ya thats true , they clear snow pretty fast in toronto and area near by.

and if u do put snowtires on ur rwd bimmers, and if u dont drive like a retard and dont accelerate very hard and its alllllllllll goood. lol

oh and have u guys ever had this feeling? driving in really bad snowstorm...and wen they havent cleared the snow and u get to ur destination ( for me it was toronto to waterloo in 20 cm of snow on the highway ) and u say , ' i got here alive , dayuumm im a good driver' LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

4doors
05-12-2011, 08:43 PM
Keep in mind not AWD drive systems are the same. The AWD drive system of the multi-million dollar Veyron is likely some sort of custom AWD setup. Got a million+? Sure, I'll build you an AWD that will rival anything. You think the Veyron uses the same AWD that goes into a Ford Flex as well?

I recall reading an article in which the author noted 15 AWD systems were available on the market to auto manufacturers. Wow. Some even use different AWD systems depending on year model. AWD is a catch-all. Kind of like 'differential', of which varying types exist and are most certainly not equal.

All performance cars RWD? Well, depends on what you're performing. If I was going to a rally race, I'll take the AWD, thanks. F1 doesn't use AWD because you have a weight restriction, and no space for it . . . yet. NASCAR, well, with all those turns (2), it'd be overkill. Plus, the Veyron's (+ Veyron Sport) over-powered engine needs 4 tires of grip to deliver power to the road.

Other cars are indeed quick through the turns but the Veyron's real enemy is not its AWD system but its massive weight, which explains its mediocre handling for a 'super' car. A thrill car is the Ariel Atom, with a higher power vs. weight ratio than the Veyron. But of course, you'd never buy a Veyron for performance or thrills. You buy it for exclusivity.

The understeer-oversteer debate rages but that too is multi-variable dependent. Yes, AWD introduces understeer but from experience I know the understeer can be dialed out. I used to deal with the problem every summer during RC season. Just harden your front tires compared to the rear and you'll get more oversteer. Move on to springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, caster, toe, camber, etc. and you can go bananas figuring getting the right balance. Car balance is a frigg'n nightmare. The world just doesn't stay constant.

I'm not a big fan of AWD because a) the 2 cars that have great AWD are the Audi (way over-priced) and the Subaru (way 'unique looking' = car only owner could love) and b) the car I like (BMW) has a pretty plain AWD system. How a $50,000 car has an inferior system to a $30,000 one is hard to understand. So is Canadian pricing but I digress . . .

Don't hate AWD too much. Independent Motive Drive may be the drive mode of the future with 4 independent . . . motors!

Mpellizze30
05-16-2011, 12:03 AM
I drive a silverado everyday (for work) and i honestly put it in 4 wheel twice this year and twice last year but those 2 times i did i was very glad i had it, when i drove my e30 year round with snow tires i feared for my life on multiple ocasions. I couldnt tell u how many times i went sideways at the top of the hill going eastbound on the q.e.w right before winston churchill on the way home from work on bad days, i almost got hit a few times, but mayb i just drive to fast. I guess i have it good in both worlds now but this is canada and y not have full confidence when your driving in the rare snowstorms we get as oppose to having to drive with caution.
I agree with the subaru thing too; ugly as hell but awsome technology, its a fwd, rwd and awd car all in one and its as reliable as anything on the road. Its a shame they have no styling in or out.

noodles101
05-16-2011, 03:41 AM
ya subaru cars look like aliens in my opinion. lol. . . .

4doors
05-16-2011, 12:13 PM
Not that any car execs are sending me updates but my understanding was that Subaru and Audi had their own patents and technologies for AWD while the majority of makers were buying from someone else, kind of like many makers buy transmissions from dedicated gear makers like Getrac, GM (e.g. e46), ZF, etc.

This may be the biggest issue with AWD. BMW's AWD may be as plain as that of the Ford Flex because it may in fact be the same AWD system. Not surprised to hear the Silverado had a good system. Despite it's many faults, when they try GM does know how to make a good set of gears.

haymakers7
09-24-2011, 04:53 PM
I agree with the subaru thing too; ugly as hell but awsome technology, its a fwd, rwd and awd car all in one and its as reliable as anything on the road. Its a shame they have no styling in or out.

sure subies are fun cars but i work next door to subaru and trust me even the top of the line sti has many issues with turbos, head gaskets etc. so i definately wouldnt refer to it as "reliable" but to each his own i guess

4doors
09-24-2011, 09:24 PM
sure subies are fun cars but i work next door to subaru and trust me even the top of the line sti has many issues with turbos, head gaskets etc. so i definately wouldnt refer to it as "reliable" but to each his own i guess

Sure, you put a turbo in any car and you get a shortened lifespan, unless the turbo is gutless. You want boost? It will cost you. Even among the BMWs, how many 328i drivers get stuck on the side of the road? How many 335i drivers get stuck? I would say Subaru probably has fewer problems than other makes with its turbos and engines though. I don't think even the STi can bring down Subaru's reputation for reliability just as the 335i hasn't crimped BMW sales.

My top 3 picks for reliability are 1) Honda, 2) Toyota, 3) Subaru. But none of these makers are my top 3 car picks. It's likely the LS F is more reliable than the M3 but I'd still pick the M3. Plus, this isn't 15 years ago, when the gap in quality was a lot larger. I'd say the gap is a lot closer today.

rendered
10-03-2011, 09:25 AM
Wow, are 2011 Subaru STI 4 door Sedans really that unreliable and ugly? I tend to love their new look and heard the Japanese built car is bomb proof and very reliable... ?

SamE30e
10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
I think you need to stop watching youtube videos and go to a performance driving school to learn about vehicle dynamics. Friction, grip, handling, etc. Acceleration is one thing, on slick surfaces. But on dry surfaces, like for like an awd will get smoked by it's rwd counterpart. Look at the 911 turbo and the 911 GT2 for example. Or BMW 328 awd to rwd. The video you posted shows an RS6 with 80 more hp and over 100 ft/lbs of torque advantage over the M5, very similar weight, yet only beat it by a couple of car lengths. Thank-you very much for that useless video.

Now though take those same two cars around a turn, or braking??? Exactly. You have to stop getting swayed by all of the mktg types that are telling you awd is better for you etc. 1 advantage and ONLY advantage is slick accelerating. That's it. Everything else is better as awd. Why do you think all of the best super performance cars are rwd??? And you mention the Veyron, don't make me laugh, that car is notoriously known for ill handling and braking. It is a one trick pony and that's top speed. Even acceleration it gets smoked by most super cars to 150mph, only after that does it start to show its 1000 hp. But around a road course it got beat by Mclaren F1, Enzo, 911 GT2, Corvette ZR1 etc.

If you're willing to learn, I could show, and teach you. No sarcasm here. I'm serious. But you have to be willing to learn.

Lets generate a scenario. Hypothetically if the GT2 and 911 turbo weighed the same, which would perform better?

So find two cars that have the same power to weight ratio, one awd and one rwd both with a set of r comps AWD would come out on top.

When you're putting down big power and I'm talking 400+ hp AWD makes a difference.

I've driven a 400whp M3 and a 600whp EVO in high performance scenarios, both with coil overs and aftermarket sway bars, the EVO handled better for sure. My WRX (before the engine ate itself) was fun as hell in the backroads and handled like a dream.