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EURO_TRASH
11-03-2010, 09:00 PM
Well here i am, i need a hand. Can some one please post a how to or lists of steps it takes to swap a S50 into my 1996 328is. I want to go forced induction (turbo) what of the two engines is going to put up better HP? Please help im the kinda guy that likes it done right the first time *th-up*

richie_s999
11-04-2010, 02:36 PM
waste of time and money, with cams and a bit of work the 2.8 motor can push the same or more power as the S50. talk to Doggee and see what he's done and what kinda power he's putting down.

Now an S52 or a euro S50/s52 is another story

craz azn
11-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Well here i am, i need a hand. Can some one please post a how to or lists of steps it takes to swap a S50 into my 1996 328is. I want to go forced induction (turbo) what of the two engines is going to put up better HP? Please help im the kinda guy that likes it done right the first time *th-up*

If you are going FI, generally the 2.8 will be the better alternative as it has forged crank and very beefy rods. IIRC the S50 doesn't have a forged crank, I'll let somebody else chime in who knows for sure. However an S52 would be another viable option, but out of the gate stock for stock, I'd rather boost a 2.8. If you plan on building up the motor with fancy pistons and rods, the sky's the limit.

T.Dot_E30
11-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Built m52 + turbo!

No use doing a s50/2 swap if you are going FI, that money is better spent on a built motor.

Mystikal
11-04-2010, 04:54 PM
waste of time and money, with cams and a bit of work the 2.8 motor can push the same or more power as the S50. talk to Doggee and see what he's done and what kinda power he's putting down.

Power under the curve is not the same as peak numbers. I stock S50 would still pull on Kurt's car, despite his impressive numbers and mod list.

doogee
11-04-2010, 08:36 PM
Power under the curve is not the same as peak numbers. I stock S50 would still pull on Kurt's car, despite his impressive numbers and mod list.

Wrong. I've raced a stock S52, and seriously walked it. Noooo competition whatsoever.

Another race with an S52 with M50 manifold, Software and Exhaust, I was barely pulling on it. But, still quicker.

I don't quite see how an S50 has better power and torque than a modified S52, but please explain if that's the case.

dble Trouble
11-04-2010, 09:09 PM
Sorry Jay, Kurt's car I've seen in action, no stock s50/52 could keep up with Kurt's car.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 11:46 AM
Let's see the dyno graph, here's my stock S50:

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73892&stc=1&d=1203626379

I have never seen a 2.8 have more overall power than a stock S50/S52. Peak sure, but there's no replacement for displacement. I'm down to learn though, please post.

doogee
11-05-2010, 11:48 AM
I'll take a look around quick for the sheet

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 12:12 PM
Tried to find Nelson's dyno, but I don't think he posted it. Very curious about this too.

EURO_TRASH
11-05-2010, 12:16 PM
hey doogee<
with m3 cams, intake what kind of software should i be looking into ?

EURO_TRASH
11-05-2010, 12:19 PM
oh and lol are you willing to help with the instal? im willing to do the drive lol

thinair
11-05-2010, 12:22 PM
Mine was like 200rwhp and 203rwtq.

It was pretty peaky, like above 5000rpm, although I don't have proper software.

BMXWill
11-05-2010, 12:30 PM
hey doogee<
with m3 cams, intake what kind of software should i be looking into ?

AA Software was the best, MarkD was a close second and the S52 ECU was third. That's on an M52 with s52 cams and M50 manifold. I should find my scanner so you can see all three Dyno runs.

doogee
11-05-2010, 12:31 PM
oh and lol are you willing to help with the instal? im willing to do the drive lol

Haha yeah we'll see.

Currently I have Active Autowerke software.

I can't find my damn dyno sheet. I had two copies! I only remember it had 216whp, can't remember the torque.

But ya I want to see where in the curve my M52 has the advantage over the S50/S52.

I'll post if it turns up.

BMXWill
11-05-2010, 12:36 PM
I can't find my damn dyno sheet. I had two copies! I only remember it had 216whp, can't remember the torque.

It had between 195-198 Torque. Don't ask how I remember this...

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 01:02 PM
And the saga continues. Under 200lb-ft peak, 216hp at the peak, and as you see on my graph the S50 makes 210+ from 5500 to redline. I can't see where the 2.8 could have an advantage.

The cars you've raced just weren't running 100%. Your car is impressive, Kurt, but you can't argue with cubic cm.

BMXWill
11-05-2010, 01:05 PM
He's gonna try Jay! Off to TAG we go since he lost his print out hahahaha

sthomas
11-05-2010, 01:27 PM
Can some one please post a how to or lists of steps it takes to swap a S50 into my 1996 328is. I want to go forced induction (turbo) what of the two engines is going to put up better HP?

From a motor perspective, the s50 is OBD1 and your car is OBD2. It's not typical to convert from OBD1 to OBD2 - in fact the other way around is better. This is especially true if you want to go FI, as it's easier to custom tune an OBD1 car. Of course, if you plan on just buying a complete FI set-up, the tune will not matter.

Your car is impressive, Kurt, but you can't argue with cubic cm.

A ~200 cc difference is pretty small. I'm not sure what has been modded on the 2.8L in question, but I'd bet it's not hard to beat a stock 3.0L. Say cams/tune/LWF/rear-end, perhaps m50 manifold and an m3 exhaust as well ...

T.Dot_E30
11-05-2010, 01:34 PM
A ~200 cc difference is pretty small. I'm not sure what has been modded on the 2.8L in question, but I'd bet it's not hard to beat a stock 3.0L. Say cams/tune/LWF/rear-end, perhaps m50 manifold and an m3 exhaust as well ...

An s50 already has an obd1 manifold
An m3 already has the lsd diff
An s50 already has s50 cams
An s50 already has an m3 exhaust

All your doing is making the 2.8 have similar bolt ons.
The only thing the stock m3 wouldn't have is the tune/software & LTW. It will be close, which makes it a drivers race, all things equal the m3 should still have a slight edge.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 01:40 PM
A ~200 cc difference is pretty small. I'm not sure what has been modded on the 2.8L in question, but I'd bet it's not hard to beat a stock 3.0L. Say cams/tune/LWF/rear-end, perhaps m50 manifold and an m3 exhaust as well ...

Kurt has all of those mods. Even catless it only matches the stock HP of the 3.0L, with less torque across the band.

Throw one meaningful mod on the 3.0L and it's gone. Even as cheap/free as the OBD2 exhaust manifold.

BMXWill
11-05-2010, 01:48 PM
Here is my Dyno with the three different tunes.. MarkD, Stock S52 ECU and then Kurts AA tune.

Engine Mods:
S52 Cams
M50 Manifold

Their Printer was lacking some ink so I tried to highlight the grid a bit.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm151/willfisher/IMG1.jpg

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 03:04 PM
Let's see the dyno graph, here's my stock S50:

I have never seen a 2.8 have more overall power than a stock S50/S52. Peak sure, but there's no replacement for displacement. I'm down to learn though, please post.

Jay, I thought this was a run with a 3.5" hfm?

doogee
11-05-2010, 03:14 PM
Oh snap!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/5149415784_cebb1e1f14_b.jpg

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 03:23 PM
Well, I guess Jay is right.
Look at Jay's 4000rpms - 150hp
Doogee, your car ~ 138hp

P.S. what happened on your first run? You lost 10rwhp from 4000rpms and up

BMXWill
11-05-2010, 03:25 PM
^The first run was his best run from the dyno day in August. The other two were from today.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Jay, I thought this was a run with a 3.5" hfm?

Nope, never had one.

And yes, thanks for proving me right, Kurt. :P

3000rpm: S50 + 5-10lb-ft
4000rpm: S50 + 15-20lb-ft

From there on it's close, but the S50 still makes more torque right to redline.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 03:37 PM
And wait a minute, you guys actually got up and went to TAG based on this? I didn't even catch the "today" part. LOL points Kurt, points.

doogee
11-05-2010, 03:39 PM
But, my point proven. The S50 and S52 are very under engineered motors.

And Jay, I really doubt the two M3's I've ran against were ****ed lol. Not to mention my motor has 320k on it and isn't running as it should to begin with.

Hell, the cams aren't even timed properly....

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 03:42 PM
Okay, if they weren't missing power, then frankly you're just a better driver. One 500rpm early shift or rev limiter kiss and you would pull ahead of them. I mean we're talking single-digit power difference here. I had close to 300k on that dyno run btw.

But I'm still right. M52 + all of those boltons =/= Stock S50

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 03:45 PM
Ask TAG for your dyno files, you can install WinPep and compare the dyno plots side by side.

doogee
11-05-2010, 03:49 PM
I guess yours was just one of the rare ones that actually runs strong. Pretty crazy you had around an extra 15hp (crank) over stock with no modifications.

Most M3s I've seen dyno are in the 205-210 ballpark.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Kurt what did you change on your car since the last dyno? Just the exhaust?

doogee
11-05-2010, 03:51 PM
Yes it has a stock m3 muffler now.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 03:53 PM
That's funny. Maybe you should keep bolting M3 parts to your M52, the "very under engineered motors" seem to have some pretty good upgrades for you.

:P

doogee
11-05-2010, 03:57 PM
Hahaha are you kidding me right now?

Look at the real m3 motors. Those are built properly.

The s50 and s52 are basically bored out m52's with cams. And you know it!

The stock m3 muffler is not an upgrade at all. The only m3 part in my motor is the cams. And ya why wouldn't I get cams for $250. As opposed to buying a fake m3 motor for 3 times the price of my mods.

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 04:00 PM
That's funny. Maybe you should keep bolting M3 parts to your M52, the "very under engineered motors" seem to have some pretty good upgrades for you.

:P

What's funny is that graph looks pretty much the same as mine after an AA track pipe install. With a more free flowing exhaust lost 10rwhp all the way to 6000rpms.

SickFinga
11-05-2010, 04:03 PM
. and bigger injectors. And you know it!


They are the same ;)

M50/S50US injectors are different from the M52/S52 injectors though.

doogee
11-05-2010, 04:07 PM
They are the same ;)

M50/S50US injectors are different from the M52/S52 injectors though.

Another point.

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 04:11 PM
Hahaha are you kidding me right now?

Look at the real m3 motors. Those are built properly.

The s50 and s52 are basically bored out m52's with cams. And you know it!

The stock m3 muffler is not an upgrade at all. The only m3 part in my motor is the cams. And ya why wouldn't I get cams for $250. As opposed to buying a fake m3 motor for 3 times the price of my mods.

Man, you non-M drivers are angry. You need to get that M3 done! :D

You and I both know the US-spec M motors are nothing compared to Euro, I'm just saying they're a little more nothing than the non-M. See my first post, that simple statement was attacked by more than one and yet...still accurate.

doogee
11-05-2010, 04:17 PM
Funny this is that I have both a non-m and m3 and can honestly say the M3 is nothing special. It was honestly a let down. That's why it's just going to be a trackcar.

And the only reason it's getting an S52 is to run in some BMW club racing if I want to.

richie_s999
11-05-2010, 04:23 PM
bang for buck, I think Kurts right, and few more little things he'd be bang on the graph, way cheaper then paying for an s50.

i'm thinking of s50 cams in my M50, apparently Mark D has a tune for this set up, I,d like to see how things turn out on an OBD1 motor with these cams and a tune, anyone got a set they want to donate for the experiment?

Mystikal
11-05-2010, 04:34 PM
To recreate Kurt's numbers you need:

CAI
M50 manifold
Test pipe
Software
Cams
Exhaust
Diff (not for #s obv)

You can easily pick up an S50 for $1k now. Buy that, shove it in, and you're already equal to the modded m52; plus, you still have a bunch of headroom for mods on that motor. You cannot make Kurt's #s for the same money as buying an S50.

Also, let me know what other little things he could do to make up almost 20lb-ft in the midrange.

doogee
11-05-2010, 07:32 PM
I still KNOW an M52 can have more power all around than an S50. It's 100% possible.

Even without busting the motor open. This is just my numbers on an untuned motor. Sure I'm missing some torque in the mid range, from my track pipe. Someone who knows what they're doing would have a solution for that. Just like a stock airbox will flatten out the torque curve. But I don't know enough about all that. All I know is I've beaten two M3's therefore I'm claiming my car is faster than a stock M3.

I wonder how much of a gain I'd have if my cams were timed correctly and had cam specific software?


And I'm not too sure about your dyno there. After looking at other M3 dynos, most S50's hang around your number with software and other small modifications.

So your motor had more power than the average stock M3. Therefore comparing our two isn't exactly fair.

Take a look at the dynos on Bimmerforums. My numbers and curve outshine most of them.

Still claiming you're wrong. This is just a special case with your freak motor.

The only thing I'll admit to is this. Okay I guess an M3 with 15 extra horsepower over stock will pull on my 328.

doogee
11-05-2010, 07:39 PM
Jay you're seriously so wrong. And your motor was a freak motor!

Now that I really dig into M3 dyno's, the picture is even more clear.

I"m seeing S50's with more modifications than me only seeing 220-225whp!


So now, are you going to claim almost every M3 dyno on Bimmerforums had a ****ed motor?

ScotcH
11-05-2010, 08:03 PM
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. The m52/s50/s52 are all the same block, the same head, the same valves, etc. The difference is bore, stroke, and cams and injectors (s50 is smaller). That's IT. Make each of those engines OBD1 with M50 intake, M3 cams, and it will go like this: s52 > s50 > m52. It's just simple physics and math ... more displacement = more power.

Yes, the m52 has a square borexstroke (84x84) so it's really friendly to higher rpms with proper head work and bigger cams (like Sunbelts). Otherwise, there really is no difference. Given the same mods, the result will be like I posted above (given everything else being equal, like ring condition, etc.)

All you're seeing is tuning and dyno variences. A good tune will always be better than a factory tune, even given the same cams, and could very well make the m52 dyno better than a stock s50.

doogee
11-05-2010, 08:06 PM
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. The m52/s50/s52 are all the same block, the same head, the same valves, etc. The difference is bore, stroke, and cams and injectors (s50 is smaller). That's IT. Make each of those engines OBD1 with M50 intake, M3 cams, and it will go like this: s52 > s50 > m52. It's just simple physics and math ... more displacement = more power.

Yes, the m52 has a square borexstroke (84x84) so it's really friendly to higher rpms with proper head work and bigger cams (like Sunbelts). Otherwise, there really is no difference. Given the same mods, the result will be like I posted above (given everything else being equal, like ring condition, etc.)

All you're seeing is tuning and dyno variences. A good tune will always be better than a factory tune, even given the same cams, and could very well make the m52 dyno better than a stock s50.

Thank you Arek!

EURO_TRASH
11-05-2010, 10:09 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????
Doogee, im totaly on your side for the money, the pay out is much better! I havent seen a s52 engine complete for less then $2000, so for less then $2000 i can be making the same numbers on my m52, as a stock s52 engine. For a guy that is just getting into the bmw world all this info you all have posted has been very useful

richie_s999
11-05-2010, 10:12 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????
Doogee, im totaly on your side for the money, the pay out is much better! I havent seen a s52 engine complete for less then $2000, so for less then $2000 i can be making the same numbers on my m52, as a stock s52 engine. For a guy that is just getting into the bmw world all this info you all have posted has been very useful

Same as a stock S50.

richie_s999
11-05-2010, 10:15 PM
Save the boost till after you've up graded the suspension and reinforced the car, also install the M3 sub frame reinformen plates b4 u do anything, find my build thread and you'll see why. Bmws are a corning dream, looking to autocross and track schools to get the most enjoyment outa it.

Steve30
11-05-2010, 10:47 PM
+++++ complete all maintenance on the car and reinforcements, you will be very sorry otherwise! I suggest you go spend a few weeks and read bimmerforums forced induction section. There is a lot of useful info there and a couple high hp M52 and S52 build threads. Since you already have an M52 I wouldn't bother wasting money on swapping in a new motor. Even though ICS performance is building some absolutely INSANE S52's your M52 on boost will be more than enough power. Lastly, going turbo is not all fun and games. There is a lot of maintenance involved.

Save the boost till after you've up graded the suspension and reinforced the car, also install the M3 sub frame reinformen plates b4 u do anything, find my build thread and you'll see why. Bmws are a corning dream, looking to autocross and track schools to get the most enjoyment outa it.

Mystikal
11-06-2010, 03:30 PM
And yes, thanks for proving me right, Kurt. :P

3000rpm: S50 + 5-10lb-ft
4000rpm: S50 + 15-20lb-ft

From there on it's close, but the S50 still makes more torque right to redline.

/M52 argument. You can keep going on all you want Kurt, but this is fact. Make the same power and torque and we'll talk.

doogee
11-07-2010, 02:30 AM
/M52 argument. You can keep going on all you want Kurt, but this is fact. Make the same power and torque and we'll talk.

Like I said before. You're judging this all off one dyno, which happens to be quite a bit higher than majority of S50/S52 dynos.

Also, when are you really in the 3000-4000rpm range in a race? Never.

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 07:42 AM
Quote by Jay from this link..... http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101532

"...and I'm stoked. Way stronger than it should be given the specs.

Build Date: 08/95
Mileage: 166,132 miles (269,000km)
Gas: 91 Shell
Mods: Dinan 3.5" CF intake, stock otherwise
Dyno Type: Dynojet (TAG Racecraft)
Dyno Conditions: Freezing
Gear Dynoed: 4th
Peak RWHP: 216.1hp SAE
Peak RWTQ: 206.6ft-lb SAE"

motor was not stock, had an intake...and a new vanos....and you said it yourself...."...and I'm stoked. Way stronger than it should be given the specs"

So your chart is not representive of an average stock S50

blk325i
11-07-2010, 10:11 AM
CAI $200
M50 manifold $200
Test pipe $600
Software $700
Cams $400
Exhaust $400
Diff $350

= $2850
that's an approx total which is still more than a s52 let alone a s50. WAAAAAY better off to buy a s50 or s52 and then taking the remained of the money and throwing some bolt ons onto that

blk325i
11-07-2010, 10:14 AM
motor was not stock, had an intake...and a new vanos....and you said it yourself...."...and I'm stoked. Way stronger than it should be given the specs"

So your chart is not representive of an average stock S50

an intake doesn't do shit, so yes it was basically a stock motor, and a new vanos is maintenance not a performance upgrade

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 10:22 AM
an intake doesn't do shit, so yes it was basically a stock motor, and a new vanos is maintenance not a performance upgrade


Yes vanos is maintance but read the thread... someone quoted him as saying it felt much stronger after it was done, A motor with a fresh vanos can run stronger the one that's worn.

A intake on a "freezing" day can make a difference on a dyno.

And your prices are sky high, not acurate and cause neither of your comparisons includes labor they mean nothing

doogee
11-07-2010, 10:35 AM
CAI $200
M50 manifold $200
Test pipe $600
Software $700
Cams $400
Exhaust $400
Diff $350

= $2850
that's an approx total which is still more than a s52 let alone a s50. WAAAAAY better off to buy a s50 or s52 and then taking the remained of the money and throwing some bolt ons onto that

What the hell are you talking about?


M50 Manifold - $60
Track Pipe - yes $600
Software - $200
Cams - $250
Diff - $350 sure

=$1460

I don't have an exhaust. Stock M3 muffler which is no more effective than a stock 328 muffler...

doogee
11-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Quote by Jay from this link..... http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101532

"...and I'm stoked. Way stronger than it should be given the specs.

Build Date: 08/95
Mileage: 166,132 miles (269,000km)
Gas: 91 Shell
Mods: Dinan 3.5" CF intake, stock otherwise
Dyno Type: Dynojet (TAG Racecraft)
Dyno Conditions: Freezing
Gear Dynoed: 4th
Peak RWHP: 216.1hp SAE
Peak RWTQ: 206.6ft-lb SAE"

motor was not stock, had an intake...and a new vanos....and you said it yourself...."...and I'm stoked. Way stronger than it should be given the specs"

So your chart is not representive of an average stock S50


Another Jay quote:

"Most stock S50s seem to be getting 200-210 on Dynojets, and I have yet to see a chart for one with as much mileage as mine.

Jay"




Just like I said earlier! I can't believe how full of shit you've been about this debate.
300,000km no it looks like 270 with a fresh vanos?
Stock? Nope.
Had intake, ya I know they don't do much at all, but hey still not stock ya big liar.

I have no beef with you, I just don't give up when I know I'm right.

I'm the first one to admit the S50 and S52 have more potential than the M52 when you mod them. The S52 especially.
But these people arguing that buying one is better on the wallet are wrong. BUT it depends if you do your own work.

It cost me around $1500 to become faster than the average M3. S52's sell for around $2500 still these days. Sooo not worth it. It's a $1500 motor imo.

doogee
11-07-2010, 10:58 AM
an intake doesn't do shit, so yes it was basically a stock motor, and a new vanos is maintenance not a performance upgrade

If an intake doesn't do shit why did you toss another $200 on your little mod list?

Ugh, you M guys will do anything to defend your Fake American M3 title :D

blk325i
11-07-2010, 11:19 AM
What the hell are you talking about?


M50 Manifold - $60
Track Pipe - yes $600
Software - $200
Cams - $250
Diff - $350 sure

=$1460

I don't have an exhaust. Stock M3 muffler which is no more effective than a stock 328 muffler...

where did you get an obd2 tune for 200? i got lucky with a group buy and cost me 350 from what i recall.
and you must have gotten lucky with that deal for cams for 250
and didn't you put that m3 muffler on very recently, are you saying that that dyno sheet was with the m3 muffler on and not an aftermarket that you had on previous? also sure you might be able to get the manifold for that cheap(rare but possible) take in account the hardware needed to install it

doogee
11-07-2010, 11:22 AM
where did you get an obd2 tune for 200? i got lucky with a group buy and cost me 350 from what i recall.
and you must have gotten lucky with that deal for cams for 250
and didn't you put that m3 muffler on very recently, are you saying that that dyno sheet was with the m3 muffler on and not an aftermarket that you had on previous? also sure you might be able to get the manifold for that cheap(rare but possible) take in account the hardware needed to install it

I got it from a max member. My first software was free.

Lucky on the cams? Dude that's how much they cost. Go take a look on bimmerforums. I got them for $250 shipped.

And ya I put the M3 muffler on a month ago and the dyno is from Friday.

The manifold kit can be put together for less than $50.

blk325i
11-07-2010, 11:25 AM
If an intake doesn't do shit why did you toss another $200 on your little mod list?

Ugh, you M guys will do anything to defend your Fake American M3 title :D

and yea it sucks being one of the fake american m3 guys that don't have to add a shitload of cash to change their cars look from factory or suspension or performance or interior or drivetrain and so on

i know it's possible to get 300 bhp out of an s52 with bolt ons, i'm assuming the s50 can do similar numbers, what's the max you've heard out of an m52?

doogee
11-07-2010, 11:31 AM
and yea it sucks being one of the fake american m3 guys that don't have to add a shitload of cash to change their cars look from factory or suspension or performance or interior or drivetrain and so on

i know it's possible to get 300 bhp out of an s52 with bolt ons, i'm assuming the s50 can do similar numbers, what's the max you've heard out of an m52?

Okay now you're just being a douche.

Changing everything was fun, and a learning experience. And I'm pretty sure people don't HAVE to change to m3 things. What a weird thing to say. That was my choice.

I'm saving all the money on insurance anyway.


I have no idea the max from an M52. Never looked into it. But I think scotches M52 had 250rwhp? On a mustang dyno.

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 11:33 AM
and yea it sucks being one of the fake american m3 guys that don't have to add a shitload of cash to change their cars look from factory or suspension or performance or interior or drivetrain and so on

i know it's possible to get 300 bhp out of an s52 with bolt ons, i'm assuming the s50 can do similar numbers, what's the max you've heard out of an m52?

Only problem is a good m3 will cost you 10g's.

For 10g's you can find a good car and build it to way out perform an m3

doogee
11-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Only problem is a good m3 will cost you 10g's.

For 10g's you can find a good car and build it to way out perform an m3

Exactly! It's so much cheaper to buy a 3 series and modify it with all the extra money left over. Then you have something better than an M3.

Personal preference though. I prefer saving money.




I think the problem is you guys are taking this as some sort of personal attack. I'm not calling the M3 a piece of junk or anything. It's an awesome car! I'm just arguing that a 328, maybe 325 can be made just as fast.

And now you're going on about mods on the m3 motor. It has nothing to do with the debate!

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 11:41 AM
Oh just a heads up. The 325is has the same LSD diff as an m3!!

Dissembler
11-07-2010, 11:41 AM
CAI $200
M50 manifold $200
Test pipe $600
Software $700
Cams $400
Exhaust $400
Diff $350


I got an M50 manifold from standard autowreckers for $30, included the m50 throttle body and injectors...

I got a TRM tune (r3vlimited) for $250... Matt offers this to all r3vlimited members...

I got S52 cams, trays and a bunch of other stuff from a parted out motor for $400...

Headers from ebay $100

A full 3" stainless steel exhaust (built myself) $400

I paid $1500 for my motor, transmission, harness, accessories, EWS, locks and keys etc a couple years ago when m52s weren't dirt cheap. I have a spare one lying around that I'd be lucky to sell now for $500...

A complete m52 can be bought and modded for far less than it costs to buy complete s52 in most cases. And S52s are basically just bored out M52s. Heads are the same, blocks are the same.

PLUS M52s have another option that I don't believe you s52 guys can do (I could be wrong, just never seen is done in an S52), which is to use M54 crank, rods and pistons (the m54 crank is the same as s52 crank though) If your trying to max out an m52 this is one route you could go. No need to worry about customs pistons which are big $$$

blk325i
11-07-2010, 11:49 AM
It's just simple physics and math ... more displacement = more power.


he said it best

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 11:58 AM
Why do M3 owners always have to think they are tops

come on. Honestly bang for buck they are just status

Dissembler
11-07-2010, 12:16 PM
Its similar to buying a modern bmw, mercedes, porsche etc. Are they fantastic cars? Yes. Is the majority of the purchase price paying for the badge? Yes. You've payed more so you need to feel like you've got more.

bmwm5lover
11-07-2010, 03:13 PM
Only problem is a good m3 will cost you 10g's.
For 10g's you can find a good car and build it to way out perform an m3
Exactly! It's so much cheaper to buy a 3 series and modify it with all the extra money left over. Then you have something better than an M3.

You and Doggee had some credibility....until this..
I don't care what you say, how much money you spend, or how much faster your non M is with the money you've saved. The vin doesn't start with a WBS, so please, don't try and use that as an argument...it's silly.

Personally, I'd rather save my pennies and buy the M3 for 10g's and not mod it until I can save some more, then feel like I am doing the "smart" thing and buying a clean e36 for 6, and spending 3-4 making it look/(out)performa real M3.

I also find it funny the debate over a few (10 MAX) hp on a 200hp car. A car isn't JUST HP. If it was, we would all be driving Minivans or pick ups (which in the last few years are making wayyyyy north of 250hp)- in fact I am pretty sure most DOdge Ram Hemi's will blow my doors off.

The e36(BMW) platform is not all about power, it is also agility, driver response, suspension, etc, etc.

It has been a little ridiculous, don't you think?

And just to clarify, I am not trying to put down anyone's ride, we all prefer different models for different reasons.

richie_s999
11-07-2010, 03:28 PM
Terry, I'd drop 10g's on a euro m3 no question, they are way above, the north American ones were built with marganly upgraded parts from a regular e36. 7g's defference for a north American M3 is a waste.

It's unfortante that BMW decided that they had build a cheaper out version for North America cause they felt our market would not suport the cost of the euro version.

bmwm5lover
11-07-2010, 03:47 PM
Terry, I'd drop 10g's on a euro m3 no question, they are way above, the north American ones were built with marganly upgraded parts from a regular e36. 7g's defference for a north American M3 is a waste.

It's unfortante that BMW decided that they had build a cheaper out version for North America cause they felt our market would not suport the cost of the euro version.

I agree wholeheartedly. I wasn't talking about Euro VS NA spec, totally different argument.

I was merely saying that to me, even the NAM3 is worth the premium over a regular e36 with a few parts slapped onto it, that debateably make it "faster"

Mystikal
11-07-2010, 03:59 PM
I've been on this board too long, my own quotes are my worst enemy. :D

BMW325IS
11-07-2010, 04:32 PM
hey guys how about m50? Mine has 270k on it, was thinking about s52 swap. But looks like with good cam and CAI and a vanos fix and software, I might get better money/power ratio?

SickFinga
11-07-2010, 05:30 PM
Yes, Jay's M3 was putting down pretty strong numbers, but doogee, your 328 wasn't putting down average numbers either.
Nelson's 328 has pretty similar mods, and had 203rwhp.

doogee
11-07-2010, 06:39 PM
Everyone is missing my point. Too off topic.

Argument is the fact that a 328 can be modded to be faster than a STOCK M3.

That's all Ive been debating.

SickFinga
11-07-2010, 07:18 PM
Everyone is missing my point. Too off topic.

Argument is the fact that a 328 can be modded to be faster than a STOCK M3.

That's all Ive been debating.

318 can be modded to be faster than an m3 too. *wave*

dble Trouble
11-07-2010, 07:42 PM
You and Doggee had some credibility....until this..
I don't care what you say, how much money you spend, or how much faster your non M is with the money you've saved. The vin doesn't start with a WBS, so please, don't try and use that as an argument...it's silly.

Personally, I'd rather save my pennies and buy the M3 for 10g's and not mod it until I can save some more, then feel like I am doing the "smart" thing and buying a clean e36 for 6, and spending 3-4 making it look/(out)performa real M3.

I also find it funny the debate over a few (10 MAX) hp on a 200hp car. A car isn't JUST HP. If it was, we would all be driving Minivans or pick ups (which in the last few years are making wayyyyy north of 250hp)- in fact I am pretty sure most DOdge Ram Hemi's will blow my doors off.

The e36(BMW) platform is not all about power, it is also agility, driver response, suspension, etc, etc.

It has been a little ridiculous, don't you think?

And just to clarify, I am not trying to put down anyone's ride, we all prefer different models for different reasons.

All I could say about this post is WOW. You want to talk about credibility? First you talk about Mosport yet you've never driven there, now you're saying 'M's' are better just because their M's. Uh.........yeah. I think you should stop while you're behind.

dble Trouble
11-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Comparing those two dyno graphs means absolutely nothing when it comes to REAL performance driving on a track or a drag race for that matter. A couple of ponies this way or that way, and like torque this way or that way will not show a winner, you won't even feel it. Driver will make all of the difference. Above 160km/h the laws of aerodynamics come into play more that power. That being said, if you're going down a long straight on a road course, those two cars above 160 would be dead even, one would have no advantage over the other. From a standing start, it's all driver. On a road course you would never dip below 5000rpm (or you're doing something wrong) so the mid band power has no bearing on this argument. This has become a very unnecessary pissing match. My two cents will always go with the cheaper dollars spent to achieve desired goal, and right now hands down the M52 makes the most cents...............or dollars! LOL.

doogee
11-08-2010, 02:13 AM
Thanks for the input Jon. You're probably the most unbiased person I've ever met.

I'm definitely over this since its gotten slightly out of control.

Axxe
11-08-2010, 05:42 AM
I don't understand all the hate both ways. They are both slow as **** by modern sports sedan standards. Just have fun with what you have.

BMW BMXer
11-08-2010, 07:57 AM
This thread was a good read, good to see that debates can still go down on Max in a civilized manner.

My two cents will always go with the cheaper dollars spent to achieve desired goal, and right now hands down the M52 makes the most cents...............or dollars! LOL.

This quote wins!

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 08:39 AM
hey guys how about m50? Mine has 270k on it, was thinking about s52 swap. But looks like with good cam and CAI and a vanos fix and software, I might get better money/power ratio?

best thing to do is a compresion check b4 putting any money into the motor,

contact Mark D about the software(OBD1 chip) for an M50 with S50 cams, and see where it lands you.

Jon@Bimmersport
11-08-2010, 10:56 AM
hey guys how about m50? Mine has 270k on it, was thinking about s52 swap. But looks like with good cam and CAI and a vanos fix and software, I might get better money/power ratio?

I would opt for an OBD1 M52 or S52 since you have the OBD1 parts already and as mentioned M52/S50 are cheap if you can spend few more bucks go S52 no doubt. M50 has potential but I found myself getting rid of the engine in search of more displacement.

Damn I missed out on this one...so many diff. angles on this topic though.

Having been through it with so many diff. config...I am personally more happier with WBS in my VIN like terry said. :)

craz azn
11-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Having been through it with so many diff. config...I am personally more happier with WBS in my VIN like terry said. :)

Why, does it make you go faster or something? :D

Jon@Bimmersport
11-08-2010, 11:29 AM
Why, does it make you go faster or something? :D

lol, just makes me feel nicer knowing its an M3 not a 332is (this time around).

Not only that, the 332is car may be as fast or faster...but I hold a better resale value. As time goes on...I tend to care less and just want the real thing and go from there. Kurt is right though, doing it all is really fun and a good experience.

Jon@Bimmersport
11-08-2010, 11:36 AM
Why, does it make you go faster or something? :D

lol, just makes me feel nicer knowing its an M3 not a 332is (this time around). Despite the Euro engine being the 'real' one, we're not in europe...so its real down here. :D:D

Hard earned money is spent best one what you really want, rather than making something just as good - its not it. That's my opinion on this whole thing but so many good points people make - OP has such a decision lol

Eurostyle
11-08-2010, 12:01 PM
I don't understand all the hate both ways. They are both slow as **** by modern sports sedan standards. Just have fun with what you have.

+1...There is always something faster/better, no matter what you do. So just enjoy what you have!*th-up*

dble Trouble
11-08-2010, 12:14 PM
LOL, that is so true, look at the new turbo Sonata, clears the 1/4 mile in 14.7 with an automatic, and the slew of 3.5 litres from nissan, Taurus let alone the SHO, Buicks and chevs with the 5.7 V8 etc.

bmwm5lover
11-08-2010, 01:04 PM
All I could say about this post is WOW. You want to talk about credibility? First you talk about Mosport yet you've never driven there, now you're saying 'M's' are better just because their M's. Uh.........yeah. I think you should stop while you're behind.

I stated MY opinion about why I am afraid to run Mosport (walls). How is that something worth arguinging? I also hate silver cars...tell me I am wrong...

As Jon said, M's are better for many reasons, that's why they are M's.(stock for stock) Your point? Anything can be made faster/better than anything else.

Chill...please. Getting too worked up over this.

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 01:37 PM
good E36 - $3000
http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138296 - $6000obo
good tires and brakes - $1000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$10,000 M3 KILLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


if your gonna do a swap, this seems the new way to go.........

doogee
11-08-2010, 01:40 PM
^^ I'd rather an S50B32 personally.

If money permits, maybe next year.

Jon@Bimmersport
11-08-2010, 02:34 PM
good E36 - $3000
http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138296 - $6000obo
good tires and brakes - $1000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$10,000 M3 KILLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


if your gonna do a swap, this seems the new way to go.........

Good point...it can be an E46 M3 killer in the right hands.

However, for those cant DIY...your calculations are off. If the $3000 E36 needs work, your going to be off. If the person doing it wants asthetics and interior, rear subframe re-inforcement then it will add up. Also I dont think his price includes the exhaust system. Does the guys A/C system work too?

All the little things add up, and in the end it costs more than an M3. Been there done that...

If you were on a budget, sell your car...buy an E36 M3 in the US. They are so cheap its sickening to those who spent so much money here to grab the real thing and know its original.

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 03:31 PM
Good point...it can be an E46 M3 killer in the right hands.

However, for those cant DIY...your calculations are off. If the $3000 E36 needs work, your going to be off. If the person doing it wants asthetics and interior, rear subframe re-inforcement then it will add up. Also I dont think his price includes the exhaust system. Does the guys A/C system work too?

All the little things add up, and in the end it costs more than an M3. Been there done that...

If you were on a budget, sell your car...buy an E36 M3 in the US. They are so cheap its sickening to those who spent so much money here to grab the real thing and know its original.


It better be an E46 M3 killer too, same power in the lighter E36 should justify that.

anyone paying for work and not doing it themselve's is gonna have higher car costs no matter what they are doing or what model they are working with.

the S54 swap is looking cheaper then bringing in a Euro motor

subframe plates should be done on ALL e36's!!!!!!!!! I tore my mounts out this summer, and ya luckly I am able to do things like that, full car reinforcment kit, SS lines, solid diff mounts, poly subframe mounts came in under $500 in parts with shipping, took a few days but saved a roll!!!!

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 03:56 PM
good E36 - $3000


No offence, but $3k will buy you a complete shit e36. Nothing I would be proud of owning.

I am not arguing with Kurt, I agree a 328 can be modded to be faster than an m3. (Like others said a 318 can be modded to be faster)

My input on the matter is this, I went thru exactly the same when deciding whether to buy my m3 or go non-m.

You are not going to find anything decent for $3k. It would be 250k + and have alot of wear. M3 are generally better taken care of, and in better shape with lower kms, because ppl who bought them knew what they were buying and paid a premium so they'd take better care of it.

Last year fall when I bought my m3, non-m's were around 5-6ks and even then they weren't in as good condition as my m3 with only 150k which i paid ~$10k for, so i think this suits this situation perfectly, so the following is why I bought an m3 instead of building one.

If i bought an non-m this is what I know for sure i would want to do to it:
- Front and Rear Bumpers: ~$500 (+paint)
- M3 Side Skirts: $150-200 (+paint)
- M3 Mirrors: $100-200 (+paint)
- M3 wing or other: $100 (+paint)
- M3 Moldings: $100-150 ($100 for cheap knock-offs or used)
- M3 Black Vader Seats ($1000, good condition, hard to find, althou now you can maybe find them for $800, not when i was looking)
- M3 Brakes $500-750 (probably more, since i'd want new pads n rotors)
- M3 re-enforcement plates $500 (not sure how much this would cost with labour)

This equals ~$3,000 worth of PARTS, not even my labor or paint (Which I don't have much time for anymore) i would need to do to make a non-m how I want it. This doesn't even consider any mods yet. Above doesn't even mention any performance mods yet.

So decision for me was:
non-m ($5-6k) + $3,000 in parts = $8k-9k + labor + paint

Fairly mint 148k M3 = ~$10k

= M3 FTMW!!!

Additional subjective reasons for buying my M3:
- It's an M3, i'll feel better about it.
- Insurance was $153/mth for me vs. $140 for a non-m
- Better condition then any non-m I saw, lower kms also.
- Didn't have the time to 'build' an M3
- Re-sale value (anyone who thinks their fake 'm3' is worth $10k is on crack, even if it has all stock m3 parts, i would still take my M3 over it any day)

Whats surprising is that everything I listed DOES NOT make the non-m faster than an M3. Add in the cost of the S52 or S50 swap and any dumbass would realize it would cost way more to build or mod an m52 to go as fast as an M3 or slightly faster.

Now if all you want is a shit box to go as fast as an M3, then sure you can build a cheaper one, but I for one wasn't going to be happy without the M3 mods I listed.

Sorry Rich, you can't compare a shitbox $3k non-m to a $10k M3. Anyone who does is a dumbass in my opinion. BTW Kurt, do you have more than $10k into your non-m, including the price of the car?



And finally for the record, I think Kurt's car is faster than my stock m3.







-

doogee
11-08-2010, 04:05 PM
BTW Kurt, do you have more than $10k into your non-m, including the price of the car?

And finally for the record, I think Kurt's car is faster than my stock m3.



I probably have over $10k just in parts on the car on top of the $8500 the car cost. But that's including all the fancy suspension bits and what not.

Yes, I've 100% spent more than I could of got an M3 for. But I have really good reason for this.

My car used to be in rough shape, and if anyone remembers, it was rear ended last year and European Autobody fixed it up waaay better than new. At this point I was stuck between selling the car and getting an M3, or keeping it and continue modding. Once I got the car back in the condition it was in, I had to keep it.

That's when eventually I was such a modding hole, it wasn't worth selling the car for an M3. I had the car long enough and liked it too much. If I did it now, all I'm buying is a badge.

So overall, yeah I spent way more, but I learned almost everything there is to know about an E36 by changing 90% of the parts myself.

I'm 100% sure if I got an M3, I wouldn't know 1/10th of what I know now.

There's my story *th-up*

And now I have an M3 for the track :) Win Win

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 04:30 PM
I think that pretty much ends any argument that anyone could have on the non-m vs. M3 subject. So stop the pussy non-m whining unless you are willing to consider EVERYTHING as a whole.

---------------

Now let's see if we can prove that Kurt's 328 is faster than a stock m3.

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 04:34 PM
And Kurt, since you've agreed if you had to do it again you'd go with the badge.

Does that mean you retract this statement?

Exactly! It's so much cheaper to buy a 3 series and modify it with all the extra money left over. Then you have something better than an M3.

Personal preference though. I prefer saving money.


PS: Sorry, but I like being an asshole when i'm right.
:D*wave*

Steve30
11-08-2010, 04:39 PM
I don't know why there is so much bmw on bmw hate in this thread!! We should be boosting and doing s5X swaps to kill other cars... and bikes *uzi*:D

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't know why there is so much bmw on bmw hate in this thread!! We should be boosting and doing s5X swaps to kill other cars... and bikes *uzi*:D

No hate from my side, just settling the argument others were having.

doogee
11-08-2010, 04:43 PM
And Kurt, since you've agreed if you had to do it again you'd go with the badge.

Does that mean you retract this statement?



PS: Sorry, but I like being an asshole when i'm right.
:D*wave*



Not at all. Now you're just acting like everyone else. It's still cheaper to make a 3 series a better car than the american M3.

It only gets expensive if you buy the bumpers and whatnot.

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 04:58 PM
Not at all. Now you're just acting like everyone else. It's still cheaper to make a 3 series a better car than the american M3.

It only gets expensive if you buy the bumpers and whatnot.
Well then there is no argument, because you are right, you can build a less than decent condition non-m to 'PERFORM' better than an American M3.
But frankly, I would not be happy with an non-m without the parts i mentioned, which is why I bought an M.
If you consider the WHOLE PACKAGE, there is no way you can argue that a non-m is better than an M3.

BTW: I am not acting like everyone else, I just want to prove a point, everyone who said they can build a better non-m is forgetting things and does not have a valid argument.

So that leaves us with the following two statements:

1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

2) You CAN build an non-m to 'out-perform' an M3, but will not have ALL the M3 pieces.


----------------------------------------
Does anyone still think they have an argument?

or can we put this to rest now?

doogee
11-08-2010, 05:05 PM
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Mystikal
11-08-2010, 05:13 PM
I don't know why there is so much bmw on bmw hate in this thread!! We should be boosting and doing s5X swaps to kill other cars... and bikes *uzi*:D

No hate anywhere, everyone in here is good. I just thought I'd stir some shit up, max has been boring. Judging from everyone's participation they agree too.

Friday. ;)

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 05:15 PM
Trev some of your prices are WAY out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the M3 plate kit from turner, OEM rear plates, is $100, for $200 you get the rear subframe plates(oem), front strut tower plates(oem), front subframe reinforcement, rear sway bar reinforcements, and rear shock mount rings

I have seen many M3 complete brake kits, including the axles and trailing arms, for around $300

Oh and I got my DSII rimes with new rubber for $600, staggered ones (wasn't looking for M3 rims just happened to find a deal)

everything else you've listed is PURE cosmetic!!!!!!

vader are heavy and uncomfortable compaired to many options out there

People aren't bashing the M3's, people are stating they are over priced, and that you can build alot more cabable of a car for less. Not to mention, if your looking to build a car and buy an M3 your still gonna upgrade things, how long and how much was your suspension you did?

you looked for a long time till you found a car you felt comfortable with, cause you had to have an M.

Plain and simple some people have to have an M cause thats what they want, but the origional debate was if it was cost effective or not to put in an M motor, which has been more then shown not to be the most cost effective was to hit M power, or performance for that reason.

seeing alot of M ego going on in this thread

craz azn
11-08-2010, 05:21 PM
Trev some of your prices are WAY out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No actually his prices are bang on. You need to calm down Richie. *th-up*

BTW find me M3 brakes, the COMPLETE setup for 300$ and I'll buy it right now.

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 05:28 PM
Trev some of your prices are WAY out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the M3 plate kit from turner, OEM rear plates, is $100, for $200 you get the rear subframe plates(oem), front strut tower plates(oem), front subframe reinforcement, rear sway bar reinforcements, and rear shock mount rings

I have seen many M3 complete brake kits, including the axles and trailing arms, for around $300

everything else you've listed is PURE cosmetic!!!!!!

vader are heavy and uncomfortable compaired to many options out there



Again rich, you are not considering the whole package, which is the point of the argument, if you are arguing that you can build a non-m to outperform an m3 WITHOUT ALL THE M3 stuff. NO ONE IS ARGUING WITH YOU!

BUT PLEASE, admit to me that if someone did do everything that they will pay more than an M3. THAT IS MY POINT.


Also my prices are way under-valued and it considers the cost of knock-off items, not OEM. IF you want to do all that you listed for $500, i will send cars to you right now! No one will pay less than $500 for all the work you did including labor.

So kindly and I mean this nicely rich, STFU/learn to read/take a debate class/watever.
No one is arguing with you.


No hate here, just want ppl to stop arguing only part of the argument.

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 05:34 PM
Again rich, you are not considering the whole package, which is the point of the argument, if you are arguing that you can build a non-m to outperform an m3 WITHOUT ALL THE M3 stuff. NO ONE IS ARGUING WITH YOU!

BUT PLEASE, admit to me that if someone did do everything that they will pay more than an M3. THAT IS MY POINT.


Also my prices are way under-valued and it considers the cost of knock-off items, not OEM. IF you want to do all that you listed for $500, i will send cars to you right now! No one will pay less than $500 for all the work you did including labor.

So kindly and I mean this nicely rich, STFU/learn to read/take a debate class/watever.
No one is arguing with you.


No hate here, just want ppl to stop arguing only part of the argument.

EVERYTHING WAS NEVER PART OF THE DEBATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and dont preach about class and through a back hand coment like that out

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 05:35 PM
No actually his prices are bang on. You need to calm down Richie. *th-up*

BTW find me M3 brakes, the COMPLETE setup for 300$ and I'll buy it right now.

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136833&highlight=e36+brakes


calm as can be....go buy brakes*th-up*

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 05:39 PM
Also my prices are way under-valued and it considers the cost of knock-off items, not OEM. IF you want to do all that you listed for $500, i will send cars to you right now! No one will pay less than $500 for all the work you did including labor.

So kindly and I mean this nicely rich, STFU/learn to read/take a debate class/watever.
No one is arguing with you.


No hate here, just want ppl to stop arguing only part of the argument.[/QUOTE]

Also speaking of reading what I said you may want to re read what I said, $500 was for the parts I used, did labour myself and saved a roll ( a roll being about $1000)

please be kind to follow your own advise B4 trying to make someone look bad with it

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 05:43 PM
please be kind to follow your own advise B4 trying to make someone look bad with it

Rich, you must not be reading the full thread or have trouble reading.

DO YOU or DO YOU NOT, agree with these two statements:

PLEASE READ THIS POST OVER AGAIN.


So that leaves us with the following two statements:

1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

2) You CAN build an non-m to 'out-perform' an M3, but will not have ALL the M3 pieces.


----------------------------------------
Does anyone still think they have an argument?

or can we put this to rest now?

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 05:46 PM
please be kind to follow your own advise B4 trying to make someone look bad with it

I cannot be kind when arguing online, otherwise i'd be writing an essay and it will require advance level English reading and comprehension skills.

I can however argue with you in person, and show that when I posted those replies i meant no offence to you nor was I 'hating'. I was just trying to get you to argue fairly without making up your own argument or only arguing part of the situation.

richie_s999
11-08-2010, 05:47 PM
Rich, you must not be reading the full thread or have trouble reading.

DO YOU or DO YOU NOT, agree with these two statements:

PLEASE READ THIS POST OVER AGAIN.

your being quite an ass in here Trev, wording things as such, and again tossing a little smart ass coment to stir things up.

here is one for you, you gonna sell the M3 and follow your idle to the next BMW?

sorry but drop the smug attitude

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 06:02 PM
here is one for you, you gonna sell the M3 and follow your idle to the next BMW?


Why because you think my IDOL is Jay? Hahah, I in no way ever wish to own an m-coupe or any convertible for that matter. I do however plan to upgrade to either an e46 or e90/2 M3.

Again Rich, I mean no offence to you, only reason I am mean is because I'm trying to highlight a point, and you ignored exactly what I was trying to prove, proving my point even further and making yourself look stupid in the process.

Maybe I should say it like this:
Rich my friend, I understand you can find some or maybe one or two parts cheaper. I also understand that you will not want to do all the M3 upgrades, but i am politely suggesting that unless you do all the m3 upgrades it really isn't fair to compare a non-m to an m3 (even minus the s50/2 engine) and make rather condescending comments about m3 owners when you are clearly making compromises.

If you still do not understand me, I'm sorry Rich, I do not mean to offend you so I will take everything back and I will offer to buy you wings on Friday night.


PS: Max hasn't been this exciting/entertaining/joyful/funny for me since Paul left. *wave*

Mystikal
11-08-2010, 06:12 PM
Why because you think my IDOL is Jay?

I had no idea you felt this way.

<3

blk325i
11-08-2010, 06:37 PM
also take in factor the suspension mods to make a non-m outperform an M, that's more money

doogee
11-08-2010, 06:43 PM
also take in factor the suspension mods to make a non-m outperform an M, that's more money

The two suspensions are way too similar too compare. If you have a Sport Package 3 Series, the handling is no different from the M3. Not to mention a 328 front sway bar is an upgrade for an M3. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only major differences would be An extra degree of front camber on the M3, and the Front Control Arm bushings have a much more solid design.


And in my opinion, suspension is too big of a topic. Driving skill comes into play way more.

BMXWill
11-08-2010, 06:55 PM
also take in factor the suspension mods to make a non-m outperform an M, that's more money

All you need is $300 for a pair of Racelands that outperform anything the ///M division has ever made. They are probably the best suspension option available for the 3 series.

*Raises gun to head and proceeds to pull the trigger*

dble Trouble
11-08-2010, 07:25 PM
..http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136833&highlight=e36+brakes


calm as can be....go buy brakes*th-up*

:d

Eurotakeover
11-08-2010, 07:26 PM
I personally have raced Kurt. I have a pretty much stock 98 E36 M3 and kurt walked hard away from me from about 90kph. There was no way I was catching up, by no means am I bashing the M3 or anything I just think its really remarkable what a 2.8L M52 can do. *th-up*

doogee
11-08-2010, 07:31 PM
I personally have raced Kurt. I have a pretty much stock 98 E36 M3 and kurt walked hard away from me from about 90kph. There was no way I was catching up, by no means am I bashing the M3 or anything I just think its really remarkable what a 2.8L M52 can do. *th-up*

Thanks for the backup *th-up*

craz azn
11-08-2010, 07:45 PM
..

:d

I forgive him, he doesn't know the story of what car those are from. I like to buy my parts from a verified source, thank you very much. *par-t*

Jon@Bimmersport
11-08-2010, 07:58 PM
No offence, but $3k will buy you a complete shit e36. Nothing I would be proud of owning.

I am not arguing with Kurt, I agree a 328 can be modded to be faster than an m3. (Like others said a 318 can be modded to be faster)

My input on the matter is this, I went thru exactly the same when deciding whether to buy my m3 or go non-m.

You are not going to find anything decent for $3k. It would be 250k + and have alot of wear. M3 are generally better taken care of, and in better shape with lower kms, because ppl who bought them knew what they were buying and paid a premium so they'd take better care of it.

Last year fall when I bought my m3, non-m's were around 5-6ks and even then they weren't in as good condition as my m3 with only 150k which i paid ~$10k for, so i think this suits this situation perfectly, so the following is why I bought an m3 instead of building one.

If i bought an non-m this is what I know for sure i would want to do to it:
- Front and Rear Bumpers: ~$500 (+paint)
- M3 Side Skirts: $150-200 (+paint)
- M3 Mirrors: $100-200 (+paint)
- M3 wing or other: $100 (+paint)
- M3 Moldings: $100-150 ($100 for cheap knock-offs or used)
- M3 Black Vader Seats ($1000, good condition, hard to find, althou now you can maybe find them for $800, not when i was looking)
- M3 Brakes $500-750 (probably more, since i'd want new pads n rotors)
- M3 re-enforcement plates $500 (not sure how much this would cost with labour)

This equals ~$3,000 worth of PARTS, not even my labor or paint (Which I don't have much time for anymore) i would need to do to make a non-m how I want it. This doesn't even consider any mods yet. Above doesn't even mention any performance mods yet.

So decision for me was:
non-m ($5-6k) + $3,000 in parts = $8k-9k + labor + paint

Fairly mint 148k M3 = ~$10k

= M3 FTMW!!!

Additional subjective reasons for buying my M3:
- It's an M3, i'll feel better about it.
- Insurance was $153/mth for me vs. $140 for a non-m
- Better condition then any non-m I saw, lower kms also.
- Didn't have the time to 'build' an M3
- Re-sale value (anyone who thinks their fake 'm3' is worth $10k is on crack, even if it has all stock m3 parts, i would still take my M3 over it any day)

Whats surprising is that everything I listed DOES NOT make the non-m faster than an M3. Add in the cost of the S52 or S50 swap and any dumbass would realize it would cost way more to build or mod an m52 to go as fast as an M3 or slightly faster.

Now if all you want is a shit box to go as fast as an M3, then sure you can build a cheaper one, but I for one wasn't going to be happy without the M3 mods I listed.

Sorry Rich, you can't compare a shitbox $3k non-m to a $10k M3. Anyone who does is a dumbass in my opinion. BTW Kurt, do you have more than $10k into your non-m, including the price of the car?



And finally for the record, I think Kurt's car is faster than my stock m3.







-

I'm so glad you saved me the time...every aspect put into perspective, because not everyone only cares about only performance (even though isnt that what it started out as?).

Trev your car had that mileage? What is it now if you dont mind me asking...you are right our cars are hard to find low km. I found a few but did not want to invest in it, although so tempting..I just hit 152000km :(:(:(

3x Beemer
11-08-2010, 08:00 PM
I forgive him, he doesn't know the story of what car those are from. I like to buy my parts from a verified source, thank you very much. *par-t*

hahaha amen to that! that whole deal was such a sketchy disaster.

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 08:33 PM
I'm so glad you saved me the time...every aspect put into perspective, because not everyone only cares about only performance (even though isnt that what it started out as?).

Trev your car had that mileage? What is it now if you dont mind me asking...you are right our cars are hard to find low km. I found a few but did not want to invest in it, although so tempting..I just hit 152000km :(:(:(

Thanks glad there are still people out there that has the knowledge to understand valid arguments.

Yes I bought my car with 148k, it currently has 170k :(
Neal's car was mint, I still need to see it in person after all that work to it.

Nick_V
11-08-2010, 10:32 PM
I chose my 328is over an M mainly based on mileage/overall condition compared to what was for sale locally around the time I bought. It had M3 cams, M50 mani, CAI, 3.23 LSD and software already done and I just happened to have had a (junker) car given to me with all OEM M3 bodywork. I didn't have any intentions too far beyond just getting a fun daily driver, so it was a no-brainer. An M would have been nice too, but I have no regrets whatsoever.

I got a mint car that should hang with stock M3s for more than a few grand less than what I would have paid for an M3 of similar mileage/condition. I've never driven an E36 M3, but I really can't imagine it being much faster than what mine feels like, not on the butt-dyno, anyhow.

Anyone tries to convince me otherwise is probably just a badge-whore.:D

dble Trouble
11-08-2010, 11:09 PM
Anyone tries to convince me otherwise is probably just a badge-whore.:D[/QUOTE]

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself.

T.Dot_E30
11-08-2010, 11:50 PM
Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Again, I just wanted to point out that comparing a free 'junker' e36 with all m3 bodywork into an argument is like comparing my ass to your face......it's dumb.

So unless you or Richie has access to a free e36 with all m3 body work, your argument is baseless. Hell even if you can find an e36 for $3k your argument is still baseless, i've already proved that, Richie's poor attempt to save $200 is dumb in the grand scheme of things, considering all the labor and paint i haven't included in my underestimate for building an full m3.

IF you think you have an argument, please state your point and back it up. Dumb one liners just prove you are either illiterate or ignorant.

Please tell me which statement below you are attempting to prove wrong.

Come on John and Rich, i think you are both smarter than your current replies show. Which is why I still think this argument should be done in person so I can prove it to you.


1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

2) You CAN build an non-m to 'out-perform' an M3, but will not have ALL the M3 pieces.


----------------------------------------
Does anyone still think they have an argument?

or can we put this to rest now?

doogee
11-09-2010, 12:38 AM
Again, I just wanted to point out that comparing a free 'junker' e36 with all m3 bodywork into an argument is like comparing my ass to your face......it's dumb.

So unless you or Richie has access to a free e36 with all m3 body work, your argument is baseless. Hell even if you can find an e36 for $3k your argument is still baseless, i've already proved that, Richie's poor attempt to save $200 is dumb in the grand scheme of things, considering all the labor and paint i haven't included in my underestimate for building an full m3.

IF you think you have an argument, please state your point and back it up. Dumb one liners just prove you are either illiterate or ignorant.

Please tell me which statement below you are attempting to prove wrong.

Come on John and Rich, i think you are both smarter than your current replies show. Which is why I still think this argument should be done in person so I can prove it to you.


Well it's definitely possible to manage the look and performance of an M3 without M3 money.

You'd just have to find the body parts in your color. Which is really easy for some people, but very difficult for people like me with Jet Black paint. In my case, I had to have everything painted.

It's just too broad of a subject. Some people get really good deals, and some people don't.

T.Dot_E30
11-09-2010, 01:37 AM
Well it's definitely possible to manage the look and performance of an M3 without M3 money.

Maybe but not likely for the average person.
I take it you don't refute my $3k for the mods i listed to make it look like an M3?

How much do you reckon the cost of your performance mods would be?
You mentioned $1460, I will take your low estimates even though it would take alot of time and patience to get some of those parts for those prices. (Please get me a $60 m50 manifold and conversion kit, I will pay you $100, easy money for u)

Simple math: $3k M3 mods (i listed) + $1460 (mods Kurt listed) + $3k (low end not mint e36) = $7,460

That does not include any labor or paint for all these mods, it does not include resale value, etc, etc.

How much was your m3 clutch and flywheel? Should we add that also?
What about the m3 door sills? What about the steering wheel? I guess crappy m3s never sold for less than $10k right? Ok fine forget about those things, but please tell me you are at least starting to see my point? (which you admitted to previously you wouldn't go the non-m route)

I repeat:
1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

Eurostyle
11-09-2010, 01:42 AM
Well it's definitely possible to manage the look and performance of an M3 without M3 money.



Possible, yes...worth it...NO! What many people forget when bargain hunting is that time=$$$. Yes, you can get amazing deals if you spend countless hours looking for them, but at the end if you add it all up, its about the same (if not more!). Anyone who thinks otherwise has too much time on his hands.

doogee
11-09-2010, 01:49 AM
Maybe but not likely for the average person.
I take it you don't refute my $3k for the mods i listed to make it look like an M3?

How much to you reckon the cost of your performance mods?
You mentioned $1460, I will take your low estimates even though it would take alot of time and patience to get some of those parts for those prices. (Please get me a $60 m50 manifold and conversion kit, I will pay you $100, easy money for u)

Simple math: $3k M3 mods (i listed) + $1460 (mods Kurt listed) + $3k (low end not mint e36) = $7,460

That does not include any labor or paint for all these mods, it does not include resale value, etc, etc.

How much was your m3 clutch and flywheel? Should we add that also?
What about the m3 door sills? What about the steering wheel? I guess crappy m3s never sold for less than $10k right? Ok fine forget about those things, but please tell me you are at least starting to see my point? (which you admitted to previously you wouldn't go the non-m route)

I repeat:
1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.



First off, my clutch and flywheel were a wear item. Second, I didn't know M3's came with a Momo steering wheel.

PS, most 328's came with the same steering wheel that's in your M3.

Eurostyle
11-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Maybe but not likely for the average person.
I take it you don't refute my $3k for the mods i listed to make it look like an M3?

How much to you reckon the cost of your performance mods?
You mentioned $1460, I will take your low estimates even though it would take alot of time and patience to get some of those parts for those prices. (Please get me a $60 m50 manifold and conversion kit, I will pay you $100, easy money for u)

Simple math: $3k M3 mods (i listed) + $1460 (mods Kurt listed) + $3k (low end not mint e36) = $7,460

That does not include any labor or paint for all these mods, it does not include resale value, etc, etc.

How much was your m3 clutch and flywheel? Should we add that also?
What about the m3 door sills? What about the steering wheel? I guess crappy m3s never sold for less than $10k right? Ok fine forget about those things, but please tell me you are at least starting to see my point? (which you admitted to previously you wouldn't go the non-m route)

I repeat:
1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

This is not even worth debating...even if you do manage to build the car for the same price, the simple fact of resale value would still come into play. In a few years from now, how much would a 318 with M swap be worth!? Any original M car IS a better investment, period!

blk325i
11-09-2010, 01:52 AM
If you have a Sport Package 3 Series, the handling is no different from the M3. Not to mention a 328 front sway bar is an upgrade for an M3. Correct me if I'm wrong.


first time i heard both those things, never had an opportunity to drive a sport package 3 series but highly doubt that it would have the same handling as a car considered best handling car at any price, the suspension are similar yet so different, everything is beefed up from springs to rear control arms and having the sway bar attached to the strut must be a better performance upgrade then having it attached to the control arms since bmw is doing it to all their newer cars

T.Dot_E30
11-09-2010, 01:52 AM
First off, my clutch and flywheel were a wear item. Second, I didn't know M3's came with a Momo steering wheel.

M3 steering wheel, but i digress, I did say to forget about those smalls things. Soo I still don't see your point.

doogee
11-09-2010, 01:54 AM
first time i heard both those things, never had an opportunity to drive a sport package 3 series but highly doubt that it would have the same handling as a car considered best handling car at any price, the suspension are similar yet so different, everything is beefed up from springs to rear control arms and having the sway bar attached to the strut must be a better performance upgrade then having it attached to the control arms since bmw is doing it to all their newer cars

Beefed up control arms? No such thing. You don't know what you're talking about lmao.

Don't try to fool me, I've taken more M3's apart than you could ever imagine. I know them inside out.

It all comes back to being the exact same chassis, which is what makes the handling of ANY E36 amazing.

Do you think BMW is stupid for using the control arm mounted swaybar link? They did it for a reason and that's why the front swaybar is bigger.



I don't understand you guys. Why can't you just appreciate what people like me have done to their cars instead of bashing us saying we've wasting our money? Like I said before, I like how I built my car how I want it. I didn't know anything about cars and this is how I learned, and that itself has saved me tons of money.

If I wanted another M3 for a daily driver, I'd get one, and still have money left over from my car. But I'm not interested, plus my insurance would almost double. But that's just my situation. I know some people don't have to pay much insurance for their M3's.

T.Dot_E30
11-09-2010, 02:05 AM
I don't understand you guys. Why can't you just appreciate what people like me have done to their cars instead of bashing us saying we've wasting our money? Like I said before, I like how I built my car how I want it. I didn't know anything about cars and this is how I learned, and that itself has saved me tons of money.

No one is bashing you man, I am trying to prove a point that it is not cheaper to build a 'fake' m3, and people who say so are forgetting things and have weak arguments.

I do appreciate your car and your choice to build it how you wanted it, I have an issue with you leading people to believe it's cheaper to build one than buy one, you yourself admitted to spending over $10k in parts alone, but your car is not the average 'fake' m3 we priced out. No argument there.


Stop taking my argument personally, I trying to argue with objective facts, and my subjective opinion as you can see I left those values out.

doogee
11-09-2010, 02:09 AM
No one is bashing you man, I am trying to prove a point that it is not cheaper to build a 'fake' m3, and people who say so are forgetting things and have weak arguments.

I do appreciate your car and your choice to build it how you wanted it, I have an issue with you leading people to believe it's cheaper to build one than buy one, you yourself admitted to spending over $10k in parts alone, but your car is not the average 'fake' m3 we priced out. No argument there.

If my car was a fake M3, it would have an M3 badge on it, so stop calling it that. I hope you realize some 325's and 328's came with all the M3 body stuff from the factory. It's called M-Technik.

And wtf, I said it's cheaper to make the car faster, than buy the S52.

And yeah I've probably spent over $10k total. But over 50% of that is in aftermarket parts.

T.Dot_E30
11-09-2010, 02:18 AM
If my car was a fake M3, it would have an M3 badge on it, so stop calling it that. I hope you realize some 325's and 328's came with all the M3 body stuff from the factory. It's called M-Technik.

And wtf, I said it's cheaper to make the car faster, than buy the S52.

And yeah I've probably spent over $10k total. But over 50% of that is in aftermarket parts.

Grr your changing the argument again....It's pointless arguing online.
I put 'fake' m3 because it is easier to call it that and to list what it is. You yourself used to have m-poser as your custom avatar text didn't you? Gosh stop getting your panties in a bunch over schematics.

See you Friday. *wave*

doogee
11-09-2010, 02:27 AM
Grr your changing the argument again....It's pointless arguing online.
I put 'fake' m3 because it is easier to call it that and to list what it is. You yourself used to have m-poser as your custom avatar text didn't you? Gosh stop getting your panties in a bunch over schematics.

See you Friday. *wave*

It was Mposter.

Ya we'll see about that. Don't get too excited about me showing up.

doogee
11-09-2010, 03:50 AM
he said it best

You're like a religious person. You pick one thing you like out of something someone wrote and don't pay attention to the rest. :D

richie_s999
11-09-2010, 05:26 AM
This thread, and the origional discussion and debate, has totally gone down the tube, since page 7, when Trevor decided to toss in apperance and style to the equation, which was never part of what was being talked about.

It's clear he wants to argue as just about everyone of his coments since then have also included jabs and back handed lines. Why would we want to meet up and talk in person when your being so rude about it here.

Mystikal
11-09-2010, 09:26 AM
It was Mposter.

Ya we'll see about that. Don't get too excited about me showing up.

LOL.

Some people are adults, some aren't. Enjoy running home with your ball, Kurt.

Mystikal
11-09-2010, 10:01 AM
Before I come off as a dick, let me explain myself. In this thread there are 2 different types of people: those who enjoy a good debate with friends, and those who feel personally attacked from said debate. Trevor, Rudy, John, hell even Jonny Blaze are all enjoying a conversation. Then there is the other side, who are a little too personally tied into their side of the debate. We are all friends here, spent time hanging out with each other for years, crawled under each other's cars on the side of the road to help out when in need, and so on. There is a productive argument with peers, then there is getting your own feelings hurt because you've invested too much of yourself into the situation. You know who you are, and both of you if you pay attention have the most recent join dates on maxbimmer.

We used to argue like this all the time on the board, then go grab coffee at some random parking lot in mississauga or something and laugh about it. Once you learn that the internet is not serious business and that what we're talking about here doesn't affect anything important in life, you can appreciate a good battle of wits. I hope those who feel offended/betrayed here learn from this and know that the more experienced members are not actually angry or intend to hurt feelings, we're just jabbing at each other like we always have. It makes for good forum talk, and that's all.

Carry on. Just needed a Jay soapbox for a sec.

craz azn
11-09-2010, 10:14 AM
Bah, who needs a race...

I just want wingssssss

:D

bmwm5lover
11-09-2010, 10:22 AM
Before I come off as a dick, let me explain myself. In this thread there are 2 different types of people: those who enjoy a good debate with friends, and those who feel personally attacked from said debate. Trevor, Rudy, John, hell even Jonny Blaze are all enjoying a conversation. Then there is the other side, who are a little too personally tied into their side of the debate. We are all friends here, spent time hanging out with each other for years, crawled under each other's cars on the side of the road to help out when in need, and so on. There is a productive argument with peers, then there is getting your own feelings hurt because you've invested too much of yourself into the situation. You know who you are, and both of you if you pay attention have the most recent join dates on maxbimmer.

We used to argue like this all the time on the board, then go grab coffee at some random parking lot in mississauga or something and laugh about it. Once you learn that the internet is not serious business and that what we're talking about here doesn't affect anything important in life, you can appreciate a good battle of wits. I hope those who feel offended/betrayed here learn from this and know that the more experienced members are not actually angry or intend to hurt feelings, we're just jabbing at each other like we always have. It makes for good forum talk, and that's all.

Carry on. Just needed a Jay soapbox for a sec.

I was just about to post something along those lines, couldn't have said it better.
*th-up*
Now whats all this about wings???

bmwm5lover
11-09-2010, 10:46 AM
your being quite an ass in here Trev, wording things as such, and again tossing a little smart ass coment to stir things up.

here is one for you, you gonna sell the M3 and follow your idle to the next BMW?
sorry but drop the smug attitude

Wow, can't believe this comment, Rich.

A few of us in this thread have grown up together (so to speak), hanging with our e30's, swapping parts and installing parts, grabbing late night coffees and going on spurr of the moment cruises! I believe the words you were trying to use were respect and appreciation.

craz azn
11-09-2010, 11:04 AM
Haha, was a joke about these guys and Red Bull... don't mind me :)

doogee
11-09-2010, 12:08 PM
LOL.

Some people are adults, some aren't. Enjoy running home with your ball, Kurt.


Jay you're acting like a child.

Just so people can catch up, Jay has been trying to set up a race between me and Trevor. And to be completely honest, the reason I'm not interested is because I think it's come to the point where you'll just find a way to cheat. Wouldn't want a dent in that maxbimmer ego you you've worked so hard to build up.

I think you calling me a child over possibly not wanting to ****ing street race is pretty childish of yourself.

Mystikal
11-09-2010, 12:34 PM
LOL, okay Kurt. I didn't try to make this personal, but since you're determined please continue.

Wings on Friday guys! *th-up*

T.Dot_E30
11-09-2010, 12:46 PM
Once you learn that the internet is not serious business and that what we're talking about here doesn't affect anything important in life, you can appreciate a good battle of wits.

A good battle? ha, i think i got dumber arguing with these clowns, they believe what they want to believe and change the argument to suit them, any logical person would understand simple math.

If any of you tools learn to read, i'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong.

Wings on friday! *rockout*

sb_600
11-09-2010, 12:54 PM
All things aside, this has been quite an entertaining debate ;)

doogee
11-09-2010, 12:58 PM
A good battle? ha, i think i got dumber arguing with these clowns, they believe what they want to believe and change the argument to suit them, any logical person would understand simple math.

If any of you tools learn to read, i'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong.

Wings on friday! *rockout*

I really hope you're not calling me a clown. I've tried to be as honest as possible.

The problem is somewhere the thread went from "S50/S52 vs M52" to "328 vs M3".

The original debate was that you can build an M52 to be just as fast, or faster than an S50/S52 for less than buying the M motor. Then it seemed tons of people who have no idea how an engine works start posting, "oh well the S50 is a 3.0! That automatically means it's faster!" Now that's clearly not the case. You could build a 150hp 3.0 I6 if you wanted.

But yeah, as soon as you start modding an S50 or S52, sure they're going to get much quicker then the M52, no doubt.

I don't care about all this M3 body shit. It has nothing to do with the origin of the thread.



And Jay, the internet is ****ed. See I can't tell the difference between someone talking shit or joking around. I don't want any beef with anyone.

BMXWill
11-09-2010, 12:59 PM
Kurt stop being a pussy about it! Everyone is just talking shit for fun. At the end of the day you have an M3 and when it's done it will be better than almost all of them on here from a performance standpoint. Not to mention a street car that is much nicer than almost all of them already.

I think your e36 game is pretty tight.. That being said, we should probably just go eat some wings, race some cars and teach you how to talk some shit! hahahaha

Mystikal
11-09-2010, 01:14 PM
And Jay, the internet is ****ed. See I can't tell the difference between someone talking shit or joking around. I don't want any beef with anyone.

No beef just chicken wings. It's all good Kurt.

I think your e36 game is pretty tight.. That being said, we should probably just go eat some wings, race some cars and teach you how to talk some shit! hahahaha

*th-up*

doogee
11-09-2010, 01:16 PM
I guess I'm too white for this lmao.

Dr. Flyview
11-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Haha I'm glad (hope) the personal tension is all settled...

Although I don't see the point of stirring up shit on the internet on a thread where noobs will not sense the OG'ness of the members and all the little inside jokes and jabs. They're looking for information so it should never be misleading!

richie_s999
11-09-2010, 01:41 PM
"Sorry Rich, you can't compare a shitbox $3k non-m to a $10k M3. Anyone who does is a dumbass in my opinion. BTW Kurt, do you have more than $10k into your non-m, including the price of the car? "

"I think that pretty much ends any argument that anyone could have on the non-m vs. M3 subject. So stop the pussy non-m whining unless you are willing to consider EVERYTHING as a whole. "

"PS: Sorry, but I like being an asshole when i'm right. "

"So kindly and I mean this nicely rich, STFU/learn to read/take a debate class/watever.
No one is arguing with you."

"Rich, you must not be reading the full thread or have trouble reading. "

"I cannot be kind when arguing online, otherwise i'd be writing an essay and it will require advance level English reading and comprehension skills. "

"PS: Max hasn't been this exciting/entertaining/joyful/funny for me since Paul left."

"A good battle? ha, i think i got dumber arguing with these clowns, they believe what they want to believe and change the argument to suit them, any logical person would understand simple math.

If any of you tools learn to read, i'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong. "



"I guess I'm too white for this lmao." same boat here

ACS_DAN
11-09-2010, 02:23 PM
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/snow_ds.jpg

richie_s999
11-09-2010, 02:26 PM
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/snow_ds.jpg

Is it bad that Darren and I used to get mistaken for each other at wheelies 15 years ago???

ACS_DAN
11-09-2010, 02:42 PM
Is it bad that Darren and I used to get mistaken for each other at wheelies 15 years ago???

Rich be glad you were mistaken for Darren and not Robert van winkle in a 5.0 Convertible.

=p

Mystikal
11-09-2010, 02:46 PM
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/1/8/6/2/7/webimg/315341780_o.jpg

JunzieB
11-09-2010, 06:16 PM
Holy thread batman! I don't have much time to slack off at work anymore and i was blaming it on a heavy workload, i think i was lying to myself.
It's probably because there hasn't been any entertainment on Max worth checking in on.

Thank you for making my workday lighter gentlemen. :D

Wings FTW!!!

EURO_TRASH
11-09-2010, 07:15 PM
Well then there is no argument, because you are right, you can build a less than decent condition non-m to 'PERFORM' better than an American M3.
But frankly, I would not be happy with an non-m without the parts i mentioned, which is why I bought an M.
If you consider the WHOLE PACKAGE, there is no way you can argue that a non-m is better than an M3.

BTW: I am not acting like everyone else, I just want to prove a point, everyone who said they can build a better non-m is forgetting things and does not have a valid argument.

So that leaves us with the following two statements:

1) You CANNOT build a non-m e36 to 'OUT PERFORM' & 'LOOK' like an M3 for less than the cost of an M3.

2) You CAN build an non-m to 'out-perform' an M3, but will not have ALL the M3 pieces.


----------------------------------------
Does anyone still think they have an argument?

or can we put this to rest now?

i do believe that doogee's 328 looks and it out performs a stock M3 if i had my choice between a real E36 M3 or Doogee's 328is i think id pick 328is. Just my thoughts i own a 328is that has the whole "M" package needs a body job which ill do myself which i do for a living, suspention will need to be bought and engine mods and im pretty sure people will be non the wiser thats it isnt a M3. I bought the car for 2800 so im pretty sure ill be way under the cost it would be to buy a real M3 after im done. Ya i could have bought an M3 but could i afford insurance ? doubt it! thats why i didnt go real M3

doogee
11-09-2010, 07:30 PM
i do believe that doogee's 328 looks and it out performs a stock M3 if i had my choice between a real E36 M3 or Doogee's 328is i think id pick 328is. Just my thoughts i own a 328is that has the whole "M" package needs a body job which ill do myself which i do for a living, suspention will need to be bought and engine mods and im pretty sure people will be non the wiser thats it isnt a M3. I bought the car for 2800 so im pretty sure ill be way under the cost it would be to buy a real M3 after im done. Ya i could have bought an M3 but could i afford insurance ? doubt it! thats why i didnt go real M3

Yeah you got uber lucky.

For anyone who doesn't know, he picked up a 328is with all the M body stuff for $2800 :o

Sure it has some rough spots, but still a great deal!

richie_s999
11-09-2010, 08:26 PM
Yeah you got uber lucky.

For anyone who doesn't know, he picked up a 328is with all the M body stuff for $2800 :o

Sure it has some rough spots, but still a great deal!

There is also a black 328is auto with all the m stuff for 4000 obo in the for sale section, that looks in amazing shape, cams tune and a 5 speed swap, say 2000 labor in and one nice car.

EURO_TRASH
11-09-2010, 09:37 PM
alright now here is the thing since we all got way off topic i want someone to find a S52 engine, tranny, wiring harness and ecu then on the other side find prices on what mods to do the m52 to make it perform with the M and lets just see what route is cheaper. Like i have said to Kurt before i wanted to hit the 300hp mark before forced induction but as kurt pointed out its very hard or next to impossiable to do. I just want to know what is better bang for my buck thats all. But after reading this whole thread i think i know what is best.

Built is and will always be better then bought!!

doogee
11-09-2010, 11:20 PM
alright now here is the thing since we all got way off topic i want someone to find a S52 engine, tranny, wiring harness and ecu then on the other side find prices on what mods to do the m52 to make it perform with the M and lets just see what route is cheaper. Like i have said to Kurt before i wanted to hit the 300hp mark before forced induction but as kurt pointed out its very hard or next to impossiable to do. I just want to know what is better bang for my buck thats all. But after reading this whole thread i think i know what is best.

Built is and will always be better then bought!!

If you have any intentions of going boost. You definitely want to keep the M52.

El Gato Liso
11-10-2010, 12:28 AM
my e30 can smoke any e36 m3. did it before and i'll do it again.

any e36 is a waste...go e30 or nothing!

blk3
11-10-2010, 06:48 AM
my e30 can smoke any e36 m3. did it before and i'll do it again.

any e36 is a waste...go e30 or nothing!

i thought you were thinking about selling your car

sb_600
11-10-2010, 09:09 AM
alright now here is the thing since we all got way off topic i want someone to find a S52 engine, tranny, wiring harness and ecu then on the other side find prices on what mods to do the m52 to make it perform with the M and lets just see what route is cheaper. Like i have said to Kurt before i wanted to hit the 300hp mark before forced induction but as kurt pointed out its very hard or next to impossiable to do. I just want to know what is better bang for my buck thats all. But after reading this whole thread i think i know what is best.

Built is and will always be better then bought!!

I just picked up an M52 and I'm the process of rebuilding it & converting to OBDI to drop into my 325i. Here's my shopping list:

-M52 - $500
-S52 cams ($380)
-headers ($90 - ebay ;) )
-UUC pulleys ($200)
-Chip & tune (~$350 - guess)
-OBDI conversion ($150+parts from M50 - My 325 was NV so i needed the computer & wiring harness)
-3.5" Euro MAF ($80)
-3.5" to 3" bimmerworld throttle body boot ($80)
-3.5" CAI (~$200)

I'm also rebuilding the engine so I will be spending a bunch extra in bolts, gaskets, and bearings but I don't think that was part of the exercise.

Total for engine = $2030

Now if you're working from a 328i already, you can knock $500 off that price, and then your looking at about $1500.

I'm hoping to be able to get over 250hp at the crank with these mods.

richie_s999
11-10-2010, 10:32 AM
alright now here is the thing since we all got way off topic i want someone to find a S52 engine, tranny, wiring harness and ecu then on the other side find prices on what mods to do the m52 to make it perform with the M and lets just see what route is cheaper. Like i have said to Kurt before i wanted to hit the 300hp mark before forced induction but as kurt pointed out its very hard or next to impossiable to do. I just want to know what is better bang for my buck thats all. But after reading this whole thread i think i know what is best.

Built is and will always be better then bought!!


I do remember seeing a freshly rebuilt euro motor for sale on the Trillium BMW club website listed for sale, that is about the only way to get 300 on an NA motor, but I think the pistons used slightly raised compression, not sure to what numbers so not sure if the motor will be good for boosting

ScotcH
11-10-2010, 11:28 AM
I do remember seeing a freshly rebuilt euro motor for sale on the Trillium BMW club website listed for sale, that is about the only way to get 300 on an NA motor, but I think the pistons used slightly raised compression, not sure to what numbers so not sure if the motor will be good for boosting

Are we talking 300 crank, or 300 wheel? 300 crank is easy, even bolt ons can do that (cams, exhaust, tuning). 300 wheel you need at least 12.5:1 cr pistons and plenty of head work.

richie_s999
11-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Are we talking 300 crank, or 300 wheel? 300 crank is easy, even bolt ons can do that (cams, exhaust, tuning). 300 wheel you need at least 12.5:1 cr pistons and plenty of head work.

http://trillium-bmwclub.ca/content/e36-m3-321-hp-euro-engine

"Excellent engine for a swap into any E36 chassis. Newly refreshed 1997 E36 M3 (S50b32) euro engine with 321hp, 75,000 original miles, only 1000 miles since refresh. New CP (11.5 compression) pistons, new (injectors, alternator, water pump. oil pump, power steering pump). Engine is complete includes ECU, wiring harness, headers, stock air box.
ralph.hansen@sympatico.ca"

this is all the add says, would say thats Crank HP, but not sure if its dyno'd

Mystikal
11-10-2010, 12:19 PM
Rich, that's obviously crank.

300 crank is easy out of a North American motor. 300 crank with a solid streetable torque curve is really only possible with a 3.2L IMO.

Fern3
11-10-2010, 12:57 PM
^ +1

Like the fully built race m52b28 that was for sale some time ago. n/a and maxes out at 250 whp (approx. 285 crank hp).

I want boost.

Jon@Bimmersport
11-10-2010, 01:05 PM
http://trillium-bmwclub.ca/content/e36-m3-321-hp-euro-engine

"Excellent engine for a swap into any E36 chassis. Newly refreshed 1997 E36 M3 (S50b32) euro engine with 321hp, 75,000 original miles, only 1000 miles since refresh. New CP (11.5 compression) pistons, new (injectors, alternator, water pump. oil pump, power steering pump). Engine is complete includes ECU, wiring harness, headers, stock air box.
ralph.hansen@sympatico.ca"

this is all the add says, would say thats Crank HP, but not sure if its dyno'd

Thats the stock output of the S50B32 crank HP.

Guys with sunbelt cams, headers, M50 manifold, 3.5" intake/HFM, exhaust and a tune push over 260whp. Shricks can get you 240-250whp as well however they also have a more aggressive cams.

Didnt NickP do this setup?

Mystikal
11-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Yeah, NickP has that setup on an S50. I haven't been in the car yet but heard it's scary quick.

ScotcH
11-10-2010, 02:01 PM
^ +1

Like the fully built race m52b28 that was for sale some time ago. n/a and maxes out at 250 whp (approx. 285 crank hp).

I want boost.

Yeah ... that was my engine. Sold it to a guy in BC, he dynoed it there and got 264rwhp. Great engine, but of course a 3.2L would be way nicer at that level of build :)

The BMWs in Touring Car are at aver 300rwhp with M54B30 (3.0L 330i engine). One was 340rwhp, but it was stupid build ($40k). You should see that thing haul ass up the back straight at Mosport *rockout*

doogee
11-10-2010, 02:03 PM
Yeah ... that was my engine. Sold it to a guy in BC, he dynoed it there and got 264rwhp. Great engine, but of course a 3.2L would be way nicer at that level of build :)

The BMWs in Touring Car are at aver 300rwhp with M54B30 (3.0L 330i engine). One was 340rwhp, but it was stupid build ($40k). You should see that thing haul ass up the back straight at Mosport *rockout*

I hope you're staying BMW and not buying that Lexus :P

craz azn
11-10-2010, 03:23 PM
The BMWs in Touring Car are at aver 300rwhp with M54B30 (3.0L 330i engine). One was 340rwhp, but it was stupid build ($40k). You should see that thing haul ass up the back straight at Mosport *rockout*

Hmm... that's the M Coupe I'm guessing? Any ideas as to what hes got that's so much better over the YTR E46s?

Steve30
11-10-2010, 03:36 PM
do you think it would keep up to mike's car? now his shit is scary quick. :D

Yeah, NickP has that setup on an S50. I haven't been in the car yet but heard it's scary quick.

Mystikal
11-10-2010, 05:26 PM
do you think it would keep up to mike's car? now his shit is scary quick. :D

It'd be close. 250-260whp & ~2800lbs vs. 280-290whp & ~3200lbs. Those numbers suggest the E30 would be quicker, but the broader curve of the S54 would probably make it close.

richie_s999
11-10-2010, 08:07 PM
It'd be close. 250-260whp & ~2800lbs vs. 280-290whp & ~3200lbs. Those numbers suggest the E30 would be quicker, but the broader curve of the S54 would probably make it close.

Would gearing not play into things big time, what gears are they running, hell with those kinda numbers tires would be important too. I still remember people trying to figure out why mikes car was so fast on the strip at eurofest. No one thought he should be going as fast as he was without boost.

Steve30
11-10-2010, 08:27 PM
What were his times?

Would gearing not play into things big time, what gears are they running, hell with those kinda numbers tires would be important too. I still remember people trying to figure out why mikes car was so fast on the strip at eurofest. No one thought he should be going as fast as he was without boost.

ScotcH
11-10-2010, 08:54 PM
Hmm... that's the M Coupe I'm guessing? Any ideas as to what hes got that's so much better over the YTR E46s?

Yeah ... the MCoupe. Near as we can figure, it's all titanium internals for super light rotating mass. It spins to something crazy like 8600 rpm. Compression is likely 13.9:1 or so. Has a totally custom intake/tb setup as well. And of course a tuner who is god himself.

He did blow it up at GP3R though, so it was obviously a grenade :)

Axxe
11-10-2010, 10:09 PM
Nick's car is pretty quick, especially across the East river at 4am.

FYI, building an m3 for under 10k with body work is possible, if you can do it yourself and can spare the time (apparently I can't, but am doing it anyway). I'm sitting at just over half now, with a shitload of new parts, 5spd conversion and almost all the m3 goodies (no mirrors because I hate them, no rear bumper and no moldings ($150 new). Other than that all m3, down to the rear half shafts. Oh, this also includes a set of 17" wheels with winters, 18" wheels for summer. All I need is coilovers, rear bumper and mouldings and it will be better than a stock m3 for less than m3 money. Motor only has 64k miles to boot. With a full repaint I'll be at the same money, not including labour, but who doesn't like building their own car?

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 10:12 AM
What were his times?

Honestly could not remember, guys were talking about it, wasn't untill they saw the motor they figured it out. I'm sure Mike or Jay would know times its laid down.

Mystikal
11-11-2010, 11:31 AM
Would gearing not play into things big time, what gears are they running, hell with those kinda numbers tires would be important too.

3.25 on the S50 and 3.91 on the S54.

Mike's times weren't that quick, he had terrible tires on and gave up after spinning through 3rd.

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 11:34 AM
3.25 on the S50 and 3.91 on the S54.

Mike's times weren't that quick, he had terrible tires on and gave up after spinning through 3rd.

they were still quick enough for people to be scratching their heads, trying to figure it out!

El Gato Liso
11-11-2010, 03:40 PM
down with E36 EVEN THE ///M's ....E30 ALL DAY EVERYDAY!!!

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 03:55 PM
down with E36 EVEN THE ///M's ....E30 ALL DAY EVERYDAY!!!

your car is part E36:huh?:

El Gato Liso
11-11-2010, 04:00 PM
your car is part e36:huh?:


false

part e34

Mystikal
11-11-2010, 04:03 PM
Owned.

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 04:05 PM
false

part e34

fair enough.......still not pure though LOL

m50 ftw*th-up*

El Gato Liso
11-11-2010, 04:32 PM
M50 FTW!

and i <3 e36.....im just talking shit since its the internet you know *referencing this thread a few pages back*

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 04:34 PM
M50 FTW!

and i <3 e36.....im just talking shit since its the internet you know *referencing this thread a few pages back*

then sell that pile and get a real car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*rockout*

(white guys can talk shit too :D )

ACS_DAN
11-11-2010, 05:23 PM
The life a person who drives an e30...

http://i.imgur.com/1Zjb5.png

Nick_V
11-11-2010, 05:45 PM
Before I come off as a dick, let me explain myself. In this thread there are 2 different types of people: those who enjoy a good debate with friends, and those who feel personally attacked from said debate. Trevor, Rudy, John, hell even Jonny Blaze are all enjoying a conversation. Then there is the other side, who are a little too personally tied into their side of the debate. We are all friends here, spent time hanging out with each other for years, crawled under each other's cars on the side of the road to help out when in need, and so on. There is a productive argument with peers, then there is getting your own feelings hurt because you've invested too much of yourself into the situation. You know who you are, and both of you if you pay attention have the most recent join dates on maxbimmer.


I don't know if this was directed at me because I made the "badge whore" comment, but since I probably have the most recent join date of anyone in here besides the OP, I'm thinking maybe it was.

Let me assure you that I don't take this stuff anymore seriously than you guys do. That comment was made in jest - I thought the smiley would clear that up - but I guess maybe coming from a stranger some people might not realize that. Just shit talk, stirring the pot out of boredom, that's all. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

Maybe you weren't talking about me, but I just thought I'd clear that up in case you were.

JunzieB
11-11-2010, 05:53 PM
The life a person who drives an e30...

http://i.imgur.com/1Zjb5.png

LMFAO! Is this why Jam Down hasn't come out yet Jay, is the car suicidal?:P

Mystikal
11-11-2010, 08:00 PM
[/B]

I don't know if this was directed at me because I made the "badge whore" comment, but since I probably have the most recent join date of anyone in here besides the OP, I'm thinking maybe it was.

Let me assure you that I don't take this stuff anymore seriously than you guys do. That comment was made in jest - I thought the smiley would clear that up - but I guess maybe coming from a stranger some people might not realize that. Just shit talk, stirring the pot out of boredom, that's all. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

Maybe you weren't talking about me, but I just thought I'd clear that up in case you were.

Nope, not you! Thanks for getting it though.

Mystikal
11-11-2010, 08:04 PM
LMFAO! Is this why Jam Down hasn't come out yet Jay, is the car suicidal?:P

Jam Down is the wife, I'm just playing with these other hoe BMWs until I'm ready for her.

richie_s999
11-11-2010, 11:21 PM
Nope, not you! Thanks for getting it though.

Jay I got no problem with jokes and jabs from guys (and girls) from members who do more then show up and take pics, but then we all have to have a little fun now and then.

But honestly the two guys with the "newest" join dates have been pretty active and contribute well to the comunity, and are pretty fly for white guys.

blk325i
11-11-2010, 11:40 PM
Beefed up control arms? No such thing. You don't know what you're talking about lmao.

Don't try to fool me, I've taken more M3's apart than you could ever imagine. I know them inside out.

It all comes back to being the exact same chassis, which is what makes the handling of ANY E36 amazing.



put a rear control arm off an m3 and a 328 beside each other, check which one is thicker and on front a balljoint instead of a bushing, also "beefed up"

now let's get on with how the thread was going, it was more interesting that way

doogee
11-12-2010, 12:18 AM
put a rear control arm off an m3 and a 328 beside each other, check which one is thicker and on front a balljoint instead of a bushing, also "beefed up"

now let's get on with how the thread was going, it was more interesting that way

No man you're a retard lol! They're the exact same Part Number and everything! 33326770813

Stop trying to bullshit someone who has both cars lmao.

"And on front a balljoint instead of a bushing"

What does that even mean? Please explain.


Sounds like you don't know a single thing about your car.

doogee
11-12-2010, 12:36 AM
put a rear control arm off an m3 and a 328 beside each other, check which one is thicker and on front a balljoint instead of a bushing, also "beefed up"

now let's get on with how the thread was going, it was more interesting that way


By the way, I don't mean to be a dick. But you need to have valid information if you're going to argue that the M3's suspension is "so different"

I'll point out the ONLY differences.

Springs/Shocks (very similar to Sport Package 3 Series though)
Front Control Arms and Bushings (3 Series has a removable balljoint. M3 you have to change the entire arm)
Front SwayBar Link

Then the Rear trailing arms are different just for the bigger brakes/hub. Same goes for the front spindle. Front spindle add 1 degree of camber.

Upper strut mounts are different from 96-99.


But structurally the suspension parts are 80% the same. So as you can see from the list, not much of a difference at all.

propr'one
11-12-2010, 12:58 PM
have people talked about diffs yet in this thread? I was very close to s50 m3's with just a chip, 3.38 and some weight reduction.

blk325i
11-13-2010, 01:15 PM
oops, i was thinking trailing arm, you know the one with the M on it.
also front control arms have diff part numbers as well

stock for stock the 328 suspension is a joke compared to the m3 suspension
i've driven both of them with stock suspension and it's a joke how big of a difference it is

propr'one
11-13-2010, 01:17 PM
^^really? Because i find it surprising how much better any e36 (including m3) is with any half decent aftermarket suspension (even just cheapie bilstein's with some springs) than it is with OEM.

blk325i
11-13-2010, 04:54 PM
yep with some upgrades it is a lot better, but i was just talking about stock to stock, the 328 had waaay too much body roll in my opinion, but as you said with a bit of aftermarket suspension it can be a lot better

richie_s999
11-14-2010, 03:30 AM
oops, i was thinking trailing arm, you know the one with the M on it.
also front control arms have diff part numbers as well

stock for stock the 328 suspension is a joke compared to the m3 suspension
i've driven both of them with stock suspension and it's a joke how big of a difference it is


The M3 better handle better, but to say a e36 is a joke in compairison is a little much. There were various suspensions on different model.

The question is, is the difference in the 2 cars worth the 5000g price difference, if you have to have an M, then your gonna argue yes. But your paying a huge premium for it, and for the price diffence you can build a much better handling and performing car.

Good condition examples of e36 m3 are getting harder to find, most are beaten up and still demand the price premium, and the parts comand a price premium as well, just cause it's M.

If you want an M, then be happy you have it, but you can't say it's the best, there are the euro and othe special models that will be better, not to mention tonnes of other e36's that have been built to out perform them.

doogee
11-14-2010, 11:38 AM
yep with some upgrades it is a lot better, but i was just talking about stock to stock, the 328 had waaay too much body roll in my opinion, but as you said with a bit of aftermarket suspension it can be a lot better

You're hopeless.

Did you do this comparison on the track? You can't just judge a cars handling simply on body roll.

If this were the case, I wouldn't of taken my UUC rear swaybar out of my car in order to INCREASE body roll. If you're really calling the 328's suspension "pathetic" compared to the M3. You clearly don't know anything about a good handling car.


By the way, I already pointed out the M3/328 suspension differences. Look back a page or so. M3 Rear tailing arms have no effect on the handling. 95 M3's have the same bushing as the 3 series you speak of.

propr'one
11-14-2010, 01:11 PM
^^also, a sport 328 has the same size sway bars as an m3. (they're just mounted differently)

dble Trouble
11-14-2010, 05:46 PM
Now we've moved on to handling differences over power? WOW! This is the one arena, the M3 guys are hopeless. On a race track, an M3 will not out handle a 328i stock for stock. I've got hours and I mean hours (for any of you who would like to be bored) of film footage of me on track with a stock 328i and 328is I've owned both, going at it with Honda S2000's, WRX STi's and E36 M3's, power aside, I was quicker than all in the braking zones and through all of the turns at Dunnville, Shannonville, DDT, and GP Mosport. I was always driving in run groups of drivers of similar or equal or better skill. And everytime i pulled into the pits after session, there would be a group decend on my car to "figure out" what I had done to my car. Nothing. Not even tires. That's how good a 328 is out of the box! Imagine if I had the power mods that Kurt had, they would have got a lashing! *rockout*

SickFinga
11-14-2010, 06:43 PM
Now we've moved on to handling differences over power? WOW! This is the one arena, the M3 guys are hopeless. On a race track, an M3 will not out handle a 328i stock for stock. I've got hours and I mean hours (for any of you who would like to be bored) of film footage of me on track with a stock 328i and 328is I've owned both, going at it with Honda S2000's, WRX STi's and E36 M3's, power aside, I was quicker than all in the braking zones and through all of the turns at Dunnville, Shannonville, DDT, and GP Mosport. I was always driving in run groups of drivers of similar or equal or better skill. And everytime i pulled into the pits after session, there would be a group decend on my car to "figure out" what I had done to my car. Nothing. Not even tires. That's how good a 328 is out of the box! Imagine if I had the power mods that Kurt had, they would have got a lashing! *rockout*

So, 328i is a better handling car than an M3? Interesting.

EURO_TRASH
11-14-2010, 09:37 PM
Hey Kurt question for ya ......
i have a odd chatter and a bit of shake in the wheel at high speeds and at high rpm's,
Ive put on the struts Tom got me big difference but still have the chatter and shake.
The lower control arms are both replace with new ball joints and bushings along with the sway bar links soooooooooo im loss on what it can be. Its driving me nuts buddy not knowing what it could be.
Please let me know what your thoughts on what it could it be
thanks

Dr. Flyview
11-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Hey Kurt question for ya ......
i have a odd chatter and a bit of shake in the wheel at high speeds and at high rpm's,
Ive put on the struts Tom got me big difference but still have the chatter and shake.
The lower control arms are both replace with new ball joints and bushings along with the sway bar links soooooooooo im loss on what it can be. Its driving me nuts buddy not knowing what it could be.
Please let me know what your thoughts on what it could it be
thanks

High speed or high rpm? There shouldn't be a connection here. The next thing if your suspension is in check, I would say it's your wheels. There might be a slight bend or a weight fell off and they're no longer balanced.

EURO_TRASH
11-14-2010, 11:51 PM
ive had two different sets on the car the summer rims and now my winters and with both i still have this issue, ya i know it sounds messed up but at high rpm's and high speeds. so for example: ill be in 4th at lets say 110km then mash on it then i get the chatter and shake let off on the gas and cruise it goes away doesnt matter what speed and what gear im in as soon as i mash on it it chatters from the front end

dble Trouble
11-15-2010, 12:00 AM
So, 328i is a better handling car than an M3? Interesting.

Very funny, no, not better, but not worse. What you guys read on paper from the automotive publications is one thing. But the differences you read about on paper are NOT quantifiable in a practical environment like on the race track. .01 g's in lateral grip, or .7 sec. advantage from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile are completely meaningless on a race track which is what my point is. If you're buying a car purely on #'s that's one thing, but when you see a 328 side by side with an M3 on track and then go WTF? You'll see what I mean.
Most people on this forum appreciate e30's but really herald the e30 M3 in a class of it's own stating it is SO far better than any other e30. Well that is not the case at all ( in terms of style and history I agree )(Absolute track performance, i disagree). I strapped on a set of R comps to a bone stock 4 door 325i and caught and passed then pulled away from two stock e30 M3's at the GP track at Mosport, one with summer tires, the other, wearing the same r comps as me. Again, it's not about absolute #'s at the track, it's what rpm are you at as you hit the apex in what gear and which diff you have, including the torque curve of your car at that point, not to mention the braking point the speed carried through the turn, and so on! I could write a book about this as you can see. Not enough time nor space. There is just so much more to it than what I mentioned here, this is just to give a taste of vehicle dynamics.

doogee
11-15-2010, 02:03 AM
Very funny, no, not better, but not worse. What you guys read on paper from the automotive publications is one thing. But the differences you read about on paper are NOT quantifiable in a practical environment like on the race track. .01 g's in lateral grip, or .7 sec. advantage from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile are completely meaningless on a race track which is what my point is. If you're buying a car purely on #'s that's one thing, but when you see a 328 side by side with an M3 on track and then go WTF? You'll see what I mean.
Most people on this forum appreciate e30's but really herald the e30 M3 in a class of it's own stating it is SO far better than any other e30. Well that is not the case at all ( in terms of style and history I agree )(Absolute track performance, i disagree). I strapped on a set of R comps to a bone stock 4 door 325i and caught and passed then pulled away from two stock e30 M3's at the GP track at Mosport, one with summer tires, the other, wearing the same r comps as me. Again, it's not about absolute #'s at the track, it's what rpm are you at as you hit the apex in what gear and which diff you have, including the torque curve of your car at that point, not to mention the braking point the speed carried through the turn, and so on! I could write a book about this as you can see. Not enough time nor space. There is just so much more to it than what I mentioned here, this is just to give a taste of vehicle dynamics.

Well you just ended the M3/3 Series handling debate *wiggle*

doogee
11-15-2010, 02:04 AM
ive had two different sets on the car the summer rims and now my winters and with both i still have this issue, ya i know it sounds messed up but at high rpm's and high speeds. so for example: ill be in 4th at lets say 110km then mash on it then i get the chatter and shake let off on the gas and cruise it goes away doesnt matter what speed and what gear im in as soon as i mash on it it chatters from the front end

I'd check out the Guibo. It's between the driveshaft and the transmission. Engine mounts too I suppose. Seems like an odd vibration but might be driveline related.

T.Dot_E30
11-15-2010, 02:27 AM
Very funny, no, not better, but not worse. What you guys read on paper from the automotive publications is one thing. But the differences you read about on paper are NOT quantifiable in a practical environment like on the race track. .01 g's in lateral grip, or .7 sec. advantage from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile are completely meaningless on a race track which is what my point is. If you're buying a car purely on #'s that's one thing, but when you see a 328 side by side with an M3 on track and then go WTF? You'll see what I mean.
Most people on this forum appreciate e30's but really herald the e30 M3 in a class of it's own stating it is SO far better than any other e30. Well that is not the case at all ( in terms of style and history I agree )(Absolute track performance, i disagree). I strapped on a set of R comps to a bone stock 4 door 325i and caught and passed then pulled away from two stock e30 M3's at the GP track at Mosport, one with summer tires, the other, wearing the same r comps as me. Again, it's not about absolute #'s at the track, it's what rpm are you at as you hit the apex in what gear and which diff you have, including the torque curve of your car at that point, not to mention the braking point the speed carried through the turn, and so on! I could write a book about this as you can see. Not enough time nor space. There is just so much more to it than what I mentioned here, this is just to give a taste of vehicle dynamics.

John, I think you missed Vlad's point. I have no doubt you were faster than those cars you listed, but at that point you are not comparing the cars anymore.

Handling is a much more subjective topic and it's almost pointless arguing. The driver becomes a much bigger factor.

Dr. Flyview
11-15-2010, 09:43 AM
ive had two different sets on the car the summer rims and now my winters and with both i still have this issue, ya i know it sounds messed up but at high rpm's and high speeds. so for example: ill be in 4th at lets say 110km then mash on it then i get the chatter and shake let off on the gas and cruise it goes away doesnt matter what speed and what gear im in as soon as i mash on it it chatters from the front end

Yes, like doogee said, should be something in the driveline. Anywhere from coil packs (if the vibration is really mild misfiring), motor mounts, guibo, to driveshaft center bearing.

Jon@Bimmersport
11-15-2010, 10:27 AM
On a race track, an M3 will not out handle a 328i stock for stock.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4WDpsfty9mg/Srd9l_q00FI/AAAAAAAAA6k/oYPr79fD1yU/s320/e36-m3-best-handling-car.jpg

Im sure you are right about the handling comparison...but stock for stock beat the M3 on the track? Cmon..I think that statement is a little much.

I don't know how good of a driver you are, im assuming good...but put someone we all know..put the 'Stig' in both cars and see which one does better. I doubt they would come out with the M3 loosing. Do you know how much R&D goes into these cars? I highly doubt BMW would under the cover make the M3 loose in the end after new car owners pay a huge premium over the 2.

Mystikal
11-15-2010, 12:11 PM
But the differences you read about on paper are NOT quantifiable in a practical environment like on the race track. .01 g's in lateral grip, or .7 sec. advantage from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile are completely meaningless on a race track which is what my point is. If you're buying a car purely on #'s that's one thing, but when you see a 328 side by side with an M3 on track and then go WTF? You'll see what I mean.

A .7 sec 1/4 mile delta will only show MORE on a rolling-run 2/3 mile straight. C'mon, John. Now your angle is that because you're a better driver than most (which is true) that the M3's differences are negligible. If you had an M3 you would have been running with even faster cars (not just other E36 M3s), as the good drivers with M3s do regularly.

richie_s999
11-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Hey Kurt question for ya ......
i have a odd chatter and a bit of shake in the wheel at high speeds and at high rpm's,
Ive put on the struts Tom got me big difference but still have the chatter and shake.
The lower control arms are both replace with new ball joints and bushings along with the sway bar links soooooooooo im loss on what it can be. Its driving me nuts buddy not knowing what it could be.
Please let me know what your thoughts on what it could it be
thanks


I agree with both answers given as possible problems causing this vibration, does the vibration go away with a adjustment of the steering wheel or with a lettng off of the gas.

If it goes away with letting off the pedal, more then likely driveline related

if it goes away with a slight turn of the steering wheel probley suspension related. Were the control arm bushings done when the inner and out ball joints were done? How are the tie rods?

bmwins
11-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Buy a stock E46 M3. Style, Performance, Respect. And it doesnt look old.

richie_s999
11-15-2010, 02:35 PM
Buy a stock E46 M3. Style, Performance, Respect. And it doesnt look old.

ROLF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok now this thread has officially hit the twillight zone

bmwm5lover
11-15-2010, 02:43 PM
Buy a stock E46 M3. Style, Performance, Respect. And it doesnt look old.

And if you want Style, Performance, Respect, AND room for your kids while dusting Corvettes, buy an M5.

If you want all of the above with italian twist, by a quattroporte...

We can go on forever. This isn't about "other" Bmw's, its about the differences betwen the two e36's, so don't bring more factors into the equation.

T.Dot_E30
11-15-2010, 05:05 PM
We can go on forever. This isn't about "other" Bmw's, its about the differences betwen the two e36's, so don't bring more factors into the equation.

No no, lets continue this shitfest, a e36 328i is the best handling car, it can out handle an m3 so hell it is better than an e39 m5 right? John can put r-comps on a 328i and outrun anything on the track, that makes e36s faster than everything it races. BMW should stop making m5s. The suspension on the e36 is exactly the same as the e39, it handles better, bmw under-engineered their m cars.......


I hope the clueless understand my exaggeration here........if not, god help you.

craz azn
11-15-2010, 05:12 PM
No no, lets continue this shitfest, a e36 328i is the best handling car, it can out handle an m3 so hell it is better than an e39 m5 right? John can put r-comps on a 328i and outrun anything on the track, that makes e36s faster than everything it races. BMW should stop making m5s. The suspension on the e36 is exactly the same as the e39, it handles better, bmw under-engineered their m cars.......


I hope the clueless understand my exaggeration here........if not, god help you.

LOOOOLLLL eeasssyy Trev *wiggle*

BMW325IS
11-15-2010, 05:13 PM
No no, lets continue this shitfest, a e36 328i is the best handling car, it can out handle an m3 so hell it is better than an e39 m5 right? John can put r-comps on a 328i and outrun anything on the track, that makes e36s faster than everything it races. BMW should stop making m5s. The suspension on the e36 is exactly the same as the e39, it handles better, bmw under-engineered their m cars.......


I hope the clueless understand my exaggeration here........if not, god help you.

*th-up*

bmwins
11-15-2010, 05:14 PM
And my stock 330ci can out handle an SLR Mclaren.

Mystikal
11-15-2010, 05:25 PM
And my stock 330ci can out handle an SLR Mclaren.

For sure, but you have to get a 328 owner to drive it.

craz azn
11-15-2010, 05:37 PM
I think you guys are taking this a bit too exaggerated. I agree with John to a point, but as far as 328 stock vs m3 stock on track, there isn't much difference in laptime. Sure the M3 is faster... afterall, it has slightly wider tires, it offers 400ccs more in displacement, and a shorter diff. But the weight is still the same, the shocks are still working with the same weight, spring rates aren't significantly different, the bone stock brakes will fade just the same within a few laps, etc etc. Most of the difference in laptime between the two will be attributed to the extra displacement/shorter diff/cams (yes cams make a big difference on track IMO) and NOT 'the handling'. An extra '20mm' of tire won't gain you another 5 seconds on track.

How bout we talk about how the doogee-mobile was faster than the M3 in the straight line 'test'? :P:P:P

richie_s999
11-15-2010, 10:03 PM
How bout we talk about how the doogee-mobile was faster than the M3 in the straight line 'test'? :P:P:P[/QUOTE]


Ummmmmm......... :)

BMXWill
11-16-2010, 12:27 AM
How bout we talk about how the doogee-mobile was faster than the M3 in the straight line 'test'? :P:P:P

Kurt must have put his M52 on the wood lathe in his basement and somehow found a way to bore the cylinders out because there is no possible way for an NA m52 to be more power full than an S52 right? Either that or his aftermarket suspension put the power to the ground a lot better. Sorry Kurt, I like playing devil's advocate.. xoxo

doogee
11-16-2010, 12:28 AM
Kurt must have put his M52 on the wood lathe in his basement and somehow found a way to bore the cylinders out because there is no possible way for an NA m52 to be more power full than an S52 right? Either that or his aftermarket suspension put the power to the ground a lot better. Sorry Kurt, I like playing devil's advocate.. xoxo

Hahaha.

I finally found a way to convert it!

richie_s999
11-16-2010, 12:36 AM
Kurt must have put his M52 on the wood lathe in his basement and somehow found a way to bore the cylinders out because there is no possible way for an NA m52 to be more power full than an S52 right? Either that or his aftermarket suspension put the power to the ground a lot better. Sorry Kurt, I like playing devil's advocate.. xoxo


LOL. Well if was against Trev's M3, the suspension isn't stock.... Explains his last pissy post.

Sounds like the M3 side of this argument got, how do you say it....

OWNED!!!!

craz azn
11-16-2010, 12:39 AM
LOL. Well if was against Trev's M3, the suspension isn't stock.... Explains his last pissy post.

Sounds like the M3 side of this argument got, how do you say it....

OWNED!!!!

You do realize Will was messing around right? :confused:

/facepalm.

Eurostyle
11-16-2010, 12:55 AM
This thread is getting more retarded every day. No new or good arguments in the last 10 pages, very little to help the OP, and not sure why it didnt get locked long time ago...We can be here 2 months from now, saying the same things over and over, and it wont change one bit.

richie_s999
11-16-2010, 01:42 AM
You do realize Will was messing around right? :confused:

/facepalm.



Yep, just want to make sure those who didn't know that cars both have upgraded suspension.

richie_s999
11-16-2010, 01:44 AM
This thread is getting more retarded every day. No new or good arguments in the last 10 pages, very little to help the OP, and not sure why it didnt get locked long time ago...We can be here 2 months from now, saying the same things over and over, and it wont change one bit.

Oh relax. God forbid newbies are right and get to have some fun too.

T.Dot_E30
11-16-2010, 02:01 AM
LOL. Well if was against Trev's M3, the suspension isn't stock.... Explains his last pissy post.

Sounds like the M3 side of this argument got, how do you say it....

OWNED!!!!


What does my car have to do in John's stock for stock claims, which my post was about? Did you not see I quoted john? He clearly claims because he is faster in a stock 328i than a stock m3, he also said a stock 328i can out handle a stock m3. Would you like me to quote it for you? You also seem to not read shit.........I'd like to read it out to you in person and see if you still don't understand.

On a race track, an M3 will not out handle a 328i stock for stock.

Not sure what Rudy is saying but the 'test' was pretty inconclusive. Neither car pulled enough to call it a victory. The M3 pulled slightly in the low end, and the modded m52 pulled slightly on the top end. Neither car pulled more than a car length on each other. Considering how hard it is to start at exactly the same time, any difference was attributed to one car getting a slight jump.

Either way, I'd call it modded m52 = stock s52, which is a victory for Kurt, but I still have much less into my m3 than he has into his 328is, so in a way I still think i won, because i spent less on my car. =)

doogee
11-16-2010, 02:14 AM
Either way, I'd call it modded m52 = stock s52, which is a victory for Kurt, but I still have much less into my m3 than he has into his 328is, so in a way I still think i won, because i spent less on my car. =)

But it concludes the point I made in the first place.

You can have M3 power for little over half the price of an M3 motor.

richie_s999
11-16-2010, 02:30 AM
[QUOTE=T.Dot_E30;1464784]What does my car have to do in John's stock for stock claims, which my post was about? Did you not see I quoted john? He clearly claims because he is faster in a stock 328i than a stock m3, he also said a stock 328i can out handle a stock m3. Would you like me to quote it for you? You also seem to not read shit.........I'd like to read it out to you in person and see if you still don't understand. QUOTE]

um let me explain in words your mind may understand, you couldn't beat a NON M3 E36 with cams and a tune, which I said from the start of this,

second WTF is with you trying to agravate me with you little cuts in everything you say to me? Seriously you think i'm gonna let a kid who thinks he's all that and a bag of chips rattle me, come on Trev, your coming off like a bitch ass..... your making this way to personal, and trying way to hard... let it go.....its ok.... you will learn to take a ribbing when you grow up a bit.*th-up* :P :D ;)*th-up*

BTW learn to read cause I didn't say anything in reference to John's post and your car, IT means your pissy cause you were WRONG!

T.Dot_E30
11-16-2010, 03:04 AM
But it concludes the point I made in the first place.

You can have M3 power for little over half the price of an M3 motor.

Agreed, but i also remember you saying you beat two s52s that were more modded than mine.

doogee
11-16-2010, 03:07 AM
Agreed, but i also remember you saying you beat two s52s that were more modded than mine.

No. One was stock. One had M50 manifold, exhaust and software.

I think the result would of been more clear on a straight road or highway.