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hockeyfan27
01-28-2010, 12:22 PM
Just curious what the split is.

simplycars
01-28-2010, 12:24 PM
daily auto / weekends manual

pawcio
01-28-2010, 12:25 PM
we should get a pole going then.

hockeyfan27
01-28-2010, 12:43 PM
forgot option 5: used to drive auto - now driving stick.
(i don't think i can edit the poll)
or option 6: i drive both

Manimillion
01-28-2010, 12:47 PM
We should make a pole, and ask do you like red or do you like black as well!

King Luis
01-28-2010, 12:49 PM
option 7 should be, i drive stick but switching to DCT later.

hockeyfan27
01-28-2010, 12:53 PM
We should make a pole, and ask do you like red or do you like black as well!

:huh?:

MiroE36
01-28-2010, 01:03 PM
8-0-0-0 lol

stan man
01-28-2010, 01:08 PM
I wish my car had a full manual (proper) and, when I wanted, a full auto.

Never gonna happen though, so I have 2 cars :)

pawcio
01-28-2010, 01:54 PM
i drive standard not manual!:D

craigIS
01-28-2010, 02:01 PM
I chose option 1.

But I used to drive auto, now I drive stick.

myndgone
01-28-2010, 02:38 PM
wannabe manual (tiptronic) :D

ACS_DAN
01-28-2010, 04:00 PM
:huh?:

You've been here for a while now! You should be used to it by now.

=p

I can't see myself driving a Manual BMW. Other cars yeah I can, but really don't prefer it.

T.Dot_E30
01-28-2010, 06:25 PM
I can't see myself driving a Manual BMW. Other cars yeah I can, but really don't prefer it.

did that come out wrong? I find the opposite, I can't drive an auto BMW.

I'd drive an Auto Benz, Lexus, etc...

spoony_prelude
01-28-2010, 07:59 PM
so far ive had 4cars

1986 325e Sold
1996 328i vert (current, Summer toy)
1990 Audi 90 20V Quattro Sold
1999 Honda civic Si ( current- DD)

All were standered!

I kind of regret buying the civic standered as it is a pain in the ass sometimes being stuck in traffic, always clutching and shifting from first to neutral........ But when it comes to on-ramp/offramp situations :D I love it!

Jay

lvan
01-28-2010, 08:05 PM
^same here. The 318i/civic/eco gets me tired in traffic as the car got no power. If it is 6 cyl, I would not mind it for daily.

blk3
01-28-2010, 08:21 PM
standard all the way baby. no auto here. never owned an auto for myself

ACS_DAN
01-28-2010, 09:57 PM
did that come out wrong? I find the opposite, I can't drive an auto BMW.

I'd drive an Auto Benz, Lexus, etc...

Yeah you got it, it did come out wrong. I can't drive an Automatic BMW, but I have no problem doing so in others.

4WDFUN
01-28-2010, 11:01 PM
As long as I own sport sedans, they will be Manual.
SUV's, Automatic.

EMPOWERD
01-28-2010, 11:08 PM
I was once like all you young-bucks preaching "manual for life" blah blah blah... Things start to change and priorities get important. Now, i'm not saying manual sucks... IMO there's no other way to truly get involved with your driving experience (sorry, SMG/DSG/PDK doesn't come close) than rowing through a slick, short gear box on a nice twisty road, match-revving and heal & toeing... but not sitting on the Don Valley Parking Lot @5:30pm Friday. That's where you want to be chilling in a nice baller-luxury car listening to 600W 15+ speaker system creeping along in "D". That said, (income allowing) multiple cars would be the best bet. A fun, sporty bare-bones whip to flog on the weekends... and a cushy baller-mobile for the daily. If I had to choose one.. I wouldn't... i'd still rather buy 2 different "cheaper" rides to enjoy 110% each.

MarkD
01-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Randy,
I am looking for a BMW for the wife to drive to work since her office is moving to Mississauga next month, and she told me it has to be a manual, no autos allowed. I would have though she'd settle for an auto for her winter car, but no it has to be manual.

Eurostyle
01-29-2010, 12:05 AM
I'm with Randy and Terry on this one! I drive both on regular basis, but after a long day, i rather get in my SUV, put it in D (and AWD if needed) and just chill...*smoke*

pawcio
01-29-2010, 08:14 AM
I'm with Randy and Terry on this one! I drive both on regular basis, but after a long day, i rather get in my SUV, put it in D (and AWD if needed) and just chill...*smoke*

even after a long day i'd rather get into a car that requires me to drive. it actually makes me feel better after busy days at work. granted sometimes traffic on the gardiner can be a bitch, but i still don't see myself driving an SUV or automatic as a daily.

on the rare occasion i drive an auto, i sometimes subconsciously depress an imaginary clutch and reach for the shifter.

BigD
01-29-2010, 08:41 AM
Depends on the application. Having spent enough time in both, I concluded there's only one sane choice for a daily driver, and another exclusively sane choice for the track, and they're not the same.

BMW BMXer
01-29-2010, 09:35 AM
When I had an auto daily I found it hard to stay awake in bumper to bumper traffic lol.

Stephanie
01-29-2010, 10:51 AM
I'm a fan of manual. I don't even mind it in traffic...

SMG (or comparable) is a great system, but I totally miss the third pedal when it's not there...

Stephanie
01-29-2010, 10:53 AM
When I had an auto daily I found it hard to stay awake in bumper to bumper traffic lol.

+1 ... Or pretty much driving auto anytime! Shit is not safe.

T.Dot_E30
01-29-2010, 11:21 AM
but not sitting on the Don Valley Parking Lot @5:30pm Friday. That's where you want to be chilling in a nice baller-luxury car listening to 600W 15+ speaker system creeping along in "D".

I used to think that, having worked downtown for the past 3yrs, going to work in rush hour traffic and coming home in rush hour traffic on the dvp, but Auto makes it worst....easier to fall asleep and run into someone.

In traffic, you have to know how to drive, as long as you dont GAS, BRAKE, GAS, BRAKE.......like all the other idiots in traffic, it's fine.

I'm usually in the right lane, creeping in 2nd at idle, trying to maintain a steady slow speed....and going into N to slow down when needed.

dbworld4k
01-29-2010, 11:23 AM
^+1. I HATE auto in traffic, always having to keep braking. I used to think the same before I started riving manual cars. I find it MUCH easier to just let the clutch out in 1st to let the car creep along, and if I'm picking up too much speed/distance is closing, I just hit neutral or push in the clutch and drive accordingly. So much easier than auto IMO.

I swear I recently posted something similar recently. Hmm..

edit: Ah yes, found it. lol

Having driven a 335 in both manual and auto, and even the E46 330 in manual and auto - there is NO contest between the two. I'm a 3 pedal guy all the way. It's just so much more involving, the whole driving experience feels much, much, much more exciting in the manual equipped car. You *feel* so much more of what's happening with the car especially during spirited driving. The auto isn't bad in the new 3 series, it's a big step up from the E46 but I still prefer the manual.

To those who say commuting is a pain with a manual, that's BS. I've done plenty of long, bumper to bumper trips in my E36 and E46 (both manual), and I PREFER the manual in traffic. I find it's so much easier and convenient to leave it in 1st and let out the clutch slowly to inch the car up, instead of constantly riding the brakes like in an auto car. Get too close? push in the clutch and let her coast to a stop. I actually hate driving an automatic now - traffic or no traffic.

Re-sale wise, you will definitely be better off with the automatic. But, are you buying your car for yourself or the next guy? ;)

pawcio
01-29-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm usually in the right lane, creeping in 2nd at idle, trying to maintain a steady slow speed....and going into N to slow down when needed.

me too.

Fern3
01-29-2010, 11:42 AM
Used to drive my mom's auto CX-7 until i bought my e36. I wanted a manual car and didn't even know how to drive stick at the time lol! A buddy of mine test drove my 323is for me and drove it home for me and then it was all me. That same night i took the car around my neighborhood and stalled a couple (ok a few) times then got the hang of it. and ever since then whenever I'm forced to drive an auto car I feel that the whole driving experience is pretty much lifeless, no power on demand, engine braking etc. Lets just say I'd rather have as much control over my engine as possible.

Also, DD a manual car is something I look forward to and I drive from Mississauga to Oshawa everyday! After getting the 3.38 LSD traffic jams require less work, I always take off in 2nd effortlessly and still have enough low end revs to not shift to 3rd before traffic starts slowing down again, one more reason why I love my LSD.

lvan
01-29-2010, 11:49 AM
Also what about those four way pedestrian intesections in downtown like Yonge/Dundas. You gotta hold the brake forever. It makes you shift from D into N. Since that is the case with me, I may just get a stick.

Fern3
01-29-2010, 11:55 AM
who here rocks back and forth while at a light on an uphill?

pawcio
01-29-2010, 12:04 PM
who here rocks back and forth while at a light on an uphill?

i think we need a new thread with a new pole. :)

Stephanie
01-29-2010, 12:48 PM
who here rocks back and forth while at a light on an uphill?

Me me me!! *par-t*

Stephanie
01-29-2010, 12:49 PM
i think we need a new thread with a new pole. :)

+1 !!!

BigD
01-29-2010, 12:49 PM
Narcolepsy is strong with this thread.

Nick_V
01-29-2010, 01:06 PM
^^No shit! If driving stick is the only thing keeping some of you guys awake in traffic, then I'm glad I don't do much rush-hour driving in the GTA:P

I pick option 6 - both. I pretty much need to have a truck for work, so I've grown to enjoy the option of just relaxing with an auto. 5-8 years ago (early twenties) I too was a manual-only soldier, which is why I get a kick out of all the "auto is not as safe, I have control" type comments. Yes, manual is way more fun, but IMO, as long as your vehicle is maintained and you are awake, you're gonna be just as safe in either - you just have to adjust your driving style accordingly. And one thing's for sure - I find that doing the speed limit is a lot less of a problem for me in an auto; the temptation is just not there...

4WDFUN
01-29-2010, 03:38 PM
^^No shit! If driving stick is the only thing keeping some of you guys awake in traffic, then I'm glad I don't do much rush-hour driving in the GTA:P...



I know, that makes me nervous to see. I've NEVER come close to falling asleep in traffic. Even when I've been super tired.

BMW BMXer
01-29-2010, 03:53 PM
I might totally have Narcolepsy but auto in traffic is killer for me I notice it more than standard in traffic.

I miss the e30 clutch pedal stiffness though used to give me a leg work out also.

propr'one
01-29-2010, 05:44 PM
Between my two cars (and occasionally borrowing other people's cars, parents cars, etc) i drive about 30-35K kms a year. Both my cars are standard, it doesn't bother me at all.

I dont drive in rush hour traffic. An automatic wouldn't make me less pissed off if i was.


And i've put 50K on both of my 3's, i don't need to rock on a hill. I can almost always get them perfectly stopped with the clutch, although i try not to ride it too much.

pawcio
01-29-2010, 07:48 PM
+1 !!!

*wiggle*
http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129353

EMPOWERD
01-30-2010, 03:31 PM
Narcolepsy is strong with this thread.


You mean "Chronics are strong with this thread" LOL! If you can't stay away in traffic because of automatic transmission, you should be at home locked in a room watching Mall Rats.

I'll say it again, you kids are all in your 20's... another 10-15 years and I promise your (weak) opinions will change. I was driving standard when 90% of you where still playing in the sandbox (1983), or womb?

pawcio
01-30-2010, 03:38 PM
I'll say it again, you kids are all in your 20's... another 10-15 years and I promise your (weak) opinions will change. I was driving standard when 90% of you where still playing in the sandbox (1983), or womb?

disagree...maybe because its available to you b/c the majority of cars in NA are auto. in europe people drive manual all their life and don't factor age into the equation. i don't see what age has to do with it.

dble Trouble
01-30-2010, 03:46 PM
manual 3 pedals all of the way!!! You just adjust your driving style that's all. I do 50-60 000 km/year, so I'm pretty much always on the road and that won't stop me from buying manual. It actually pisses me off when I'm car shopping and some of the models don't offer manual. Years back I bought an Accord and was so wanting the V6 but got the 4 banger instead 'cause at the time the v6 was auto only. Same with a Ford Escape, got the 4 cyl, instead of v6 for the manual tranny.

My ideal family vehicle would be an Odyssey manual, imagine that minivan manual. In europe it exists but we get the shit end of the stick since n. americans are lazy, overweight, drivethru eating people. :moon:

EMPOWERD
01-30-2010, 03:48 PM
disagree...maybe because its available to you b/c the majority of cars in NA are auto. in europe people drive manual all their life and don't factor age into the equation. i don't see what age has to do with it.

Ok, lets make this simpler then. How many years have you been driving standard ON A DAILY BASIS through rush hour traffic? Or better, how many KM a year do you drive since you've been driving. I log minimum 60,000km/yr and been doing that since college in '95. That's almost 1 million KM of commuter driving. Not to mention the track days, road trips and 4 years of farting around from '91 - '95 borrowing my father's 5spd supercharged Mustang. So yes, age has a lot to do. AGE = EXPERIENCE = SEAT TIME = SICK OF PUSHING CLUTCH IN TRAFFIC.

dble Trouble
01-30-2010, 03:51 PM
In regards to the age issue, my dad is 66 and driving manual, he won't consider auto at all. I'm 35 and same deal. I just cannot stand autos. Too much lost and no fun at all. I've only ever owned two autos of the 38 cars my wife and I have gone through, and it wasn't really by choice. Windstar, was the first family truckster after we had kids. E350 work horse. Both are sold, and I've got two manuals. My wife does have a vehicle provided to her by her employer which is auto, so not by choice.

pawcio
01-30-2010, 03:59 PM
Ok, lets make this simpler then. How many years have you been driving standard ON A DAILY BASIS through rush hour traffic? Or better, how many KM a year do you drive since you've been driving. I log minimum 60,000km/yr and been doing that since college in '95. That's almost 1 million KM of commuter driving. Not to mention the track days, road trips and 4 years of farting around from '91 - '95 borrowing my father's 5spd supercharged Mustang. So yes, age has a lot to do. AGE = EXPERIENCE = SEAT TIME = SICK OF PUSHING CLUTCH IN TRAFFIC.

two different points there.
1. people who drive 60,000km/year or 100,000km/year are tired of pressing a third pedal as compared to people who drive less.

2. people who get old and senile and tired or pressing a third pedal.

how about i come back in 10-20 years and confirm that i'm still driving manual.

bottom line. i don't its not about age, its about attitude and how one perceives driving. maybe in a few years people who don't like to drive will buy those cars that you program your destination, press go and take a nap.

EMPOWERD
01-30-2010, 03:59 PM
In regards to the age issue, my dad is 66 and driving manual, he won't consider auto at all. I'm 35 and same deal. I just cannot stand autos. Too much lost and no fun at all. I've only ever owned two autos of the 38 cars my wife and I have gone through, and it wasn't really by choice. Windstar, was the first family truckster after we had kids. E350 work horse. Both are sold, and I've got two manuals. My wife does have a vehicle provided to her by her employer which is auto, so not by choice.

I'm not saying everyone will change to auto when they hit 35yrs old John... but majority of opinions on here reflect 20-something yr olds that recently purchased their first 5spd car and are gun-ho. Like I said, I once had that attitude and swore manual-for-life. Now realizing the wise elders of years ago had it right by predicting i'll change with time. My dad is 76 and still drives a 6spd Porsche, but has an auto for a daily... because it make sense.


bottom line. i don't its not about age, its about attitude and how one perceives driving. maybe in a few years people who don't like to drive will buy those cars that you program your destination, press go and take a nap.

See, that makes more sense and now you're starting to talk with substance. I don't think theres anyone who loves driving more than me... hell, i've been sacrificing my life to make other drive better for the past 9 years (track instructing) BUT, I don't consider sitting in grid-lock with Toronto's absolutely idiotic infrastructure "driving". If I lived in Germany (been there many times, have many relatives) I would definitely be driving a 5spd for a daily. Their roads and highways are made for real drivers. Lets face it, the weak point here is our archaic system with stunt laws, 100km/h limits and 6 million-people-GTA-congesition on 3 highways. Argument over.

dble Trouble
01-30-2010, 04:04 PM
^^I'm not gonna argue that. It makes sense^^

drivetolive
01-30-2010, 04:10 PM
I have an auto/step-tronic, ya I wish I had a stick, but i'm quite happy with my step tranny. I could hold my revs in the powerband, can engine brake to a certain extent, downshift and what-not. I try making the best out of what I have, regardless of what the many sworn-manual lovers say (lol gets old when manual guys make fun of the auto guys).

With that being said, I can never see myself driving a regular auto w/o the step/tip feature. Those really are too boring.

I guess BMW's step/SMG/DCT trannies give you the best of both worlds.

To the comment about age and people driving stick in Europe/Britain all their life, you cannot look at it so simply in black/white. In Europe, they are going for the cheapest option available. They already pay a ridiculious amount on gas (lol to them a 330i is like buying a v12 compared to buying a 330d). For them, saving the several thousand on opting for the manual is worth it. Not to mention, cars over there are already more expensive (pretty sure on this, can someone confirm?).

pawcio
01-30-2010, 05:14 PM
...with Toronto's absolutely idiotic infrastructure "driving". If I lived in Germany (been there many times, have many relatives) I would definitely be driving a 5spd for a daily. Their roads and highways are made for real drivers. Lets face it, the weak point here is our archaic system with stunt laws, 100km/h limits and 6 million-people-GTA-congesition on 3 highways.

i agree with you there

i'm stuck in traffic on the gardiner every day to and from work. from is a lot worse. even though being in traffic isn't exactly an exhilarating experience, once i'm off the highway i'm glad i have a manual because it keeps me engaged the remainder of the drive. and even having a manual in traffic doesn't bother me.

spoony_prelude
01-30-2010, 05:20 PM
You mean "Chronics are strong with this thread" LOL! If you can't stay away in traffic because of automatic transmission, you should be at home locked in a room watching Mall Rats.

I'll say it again, you kids are all in your 20's... another 10-15 years and I promise your (weak) opinions will change. I was driving standard when 90% of you where still playing in the sandbox (1983), or womb?

Homie in 1983 I wasnt in no sandbox, Heck I wasnt even born:( ahwell fast forward 4 years later and there I was! lol

Regret buying my civic standered, I go to work everyday at 5:30am, honestly I just wanna sip on my coffee listen to the radio show and cruise. But it's way to hard with a freggin standerd! fml! lol

Jay

Eurostyle
01-31-2010, 03:39 AM
I'll say it again, you kids are all in your 20's... another 10-15 years and I promise your (weak) opinions will change. I was driving standard when 90% of you where still playing in the sandbox (1983), or womb?

You drove when you were 10!!!? lol But i know what you are saying, time (and age) changes A LOT of things...10 years ago i had a different view on driving...

lvan
01-31-2010, 03:31 PM
IMHO well put post. The verdict! Also I think the mentality plays a major role. Germans/Europeans tend to drive and not eat/drink and do other nasty things in their cars. Here in Canada, I have seen all sorts of those habbits, including when some on a phone with a paper plate eating some salad of their lap. The list can go on and on. So to make it clean as Randy/Fil said; Auto for this kind of BS on daily torture, and stick for track. The infrastructure is an issue as well.


I'm not saying everyone will change to auto when they hit 35yrs old John... but majority of opinions on here reflect 20-something yr olds that recently purchased their first 5spd car and are gun-ho. Like I said, I once had that attitude and swore manual-for-life. Now realizing the wise elders of years ago had it right by predicting i'll change with time. My dad is 76 and still drives a 6spd Porsche, but has an auto for a daily... because it make sense.



See, that makes more sense and now you're starting to talk with substance. I don't think theres anyone who loves driving more than me... hell, i've been sacrificing my life to make other drive better for the past 9 years (track instructing) BUT, I don't consider sitting in grid-lock with Toronto's absolutely idiotic infrastructure "driving". If I lived in Germany (been there many times, have many relatives) I would definitely be driving a 5spd for a daily. Their roads and highways are made for real drivers. Lets face it, the weak point here is our archaic system with stunt laws, 100km/h limits and 6 million-people-GTA-congesition on 3 highways. Argument over.

hockeyfan27
02-01-2010, 09:56 AM
...My ideal family vehicle would be an Odyssey manual, imagine that minivan manual...

I have a family friend that custom ordered a dodge caravan with a manual gear box. (it was $1500 cheaper) This was back in the early 90's. I don't know if they'd let you now. The shifter was something like 18" tall.

EMPOWERD
02-01-2010, 01:21 PM
You drove when you were 10!!!? lol But i know what you are saying, time (and age) changes A LOT of things...10 years ago i had a different view on driving...

Actually 9. My father taught me on his '82 E31 320i driving around empty parking lots in Mississauga. I could just reach the pedals!

voluted
02-01-2010, 04:38 PM
My dad has been driving a 5speed auto 540i for the past 3 years and he has always complained how miserable it is driving an auto. The car is still pretty fun to drive but i could see it being much more enjoyable with a 6 speed manual. Hes picking up a 6 speed e92 this week and couldn't be happier to get back in a manual car. He touches 50k/year driving and hes 54. I fit in the "young buck 20 year old" age bracket but i can't see myself driving an auto in the future. I prefer being in my e30 with it's stick to my dad's e39 in traffic and it's not a comfortable cruiser like the 5. Like others have said, i find it easier to just ease the clutch out and coast down the DVP in 1st or seccond.

I can understand why people prefer auto to manual for commuting though. People have different driving styles and i think some would much rather savour the experience of a M/T vehicle for a road and traffic conditions that let you experience the vehicle.

propr'one
02-01-2010, 04:45 PM
Does anyone here end up doing hard braking with their left foot? I'm so used to reaching for the clutch under very hard braking i sometimes hit the brake on a slushbox with my left foot

blk325i
02-01-2010, 04:52 PM
in my country, you only drove automatic if you didn't have a left leg

davericher20
02-01-2010, 05:21 PM
^^hahaha.

I bought the bimmer before my current job.........which entails 65,000 km per year. SO I bought a nice AUTO for the dd/winter beater and drive the stick on evenings and weekends.

Yes I like the stick for the engine braking when in traffic, but such a pain in the ass when it's stop and go.
I prefer the auto for dd.......

Dr. Flyview
02-01-2010, 05:48 PM
I find the best way to deal with a manual in a traffic jam on the highway is leave slightly more buffer space in front of you and just leave it in first or second driving 3-10km/h. If you actually have to stop to 0km/h every 5 seconds, it's time to get off the highway ASAP LOLOL.

Spalz-_-e36
02-01-2010, 09:19 PM
manual keeps driving a little more exciting

hockeyfan27
02-02-2010, 01:28 PM
I find the best way to deal with a manual in a traffic jam on the highway is leave slightly more buffer space in front of you and just leave it in first or second driving 3-10km/h. If you actually have to stop to 0km/h every 5 seconds, it's time to get off the highway ASAP LOLOL.

Idiot drivers ALWAYS cut me off and immediately eliminate any buffer. I've even had people honk because they want me to move up & close the gap. :huh?:

lvan
02-02-2010, 06:43 PM
^ You beat me John.


I was about to say that. Some sucker is going to sneak and and stare on a mirror while realizing he did something silly.

Dr. Flyview
02-02-2010, 07:23 PM
That's why your run 55W HIDs in your reflector headlights :D

lvan
02-02-2010, 07:31 PM
^right on, and yell out "sugi pula" as all my crazy romanians used to teach me.

xlash
02-05-2010, 01:10 AM
What's an auto?

Eurostyle
02-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Actually 9. My father taught me on his '82 E31 320i driving around empty parking lots in Mississauga. I could just reach the pedals!

Lucky you got a bimmer! I had to start on an 81 Mercury Lynx (aka Ford Escort) :D

lvan
02-05-2010, 02:13 AM
During 70s and 80s , They used to start with this one in Serbia or even Bulgaria.

http://ned.ronet.ru/0/1965%20Zastava%20750_2.jpg


I heard it was a bitch to pop it in reverse gear.:D


Fiat 750 / Fiat 600

Dammerung
02-05-2010, 10:03 AM
I Wanna do a tranny swap in my E38 !!!!

Axxe
02-07-2010, 12:56 AM
Who cares? Point A-B. Can't drive fast on the street anyway.

Dammerung
02-07-2010, 03:16 AM
Who cares? Point A-B. Can't drive fast on the street anyway.



lol...a lot of people care...its all about preferences...y does someone buy a ferrari.,...to get from A-B..

xlash
02-09-2010, 12:13 AM
lol...a lot of people care...its all about preferences...y does someone buy a ferrari.,...to get from A-B..

People who drive Ferraris usually drive from point A to point A on weekends or on the track.

pawcio
02-09-2010, 07:48 AM
People who drive Ferraris usually drive from point A to point A on weekends or on the track.

yeah, but then every once in a while you see on the news a ferrari or lambo stuck in the snow in toronto.

Dammerung
02-09-2010, 02:53 PM
yeah, but then every once in a while you see on the news a ferrari or lambo stuck in the snow in toronto.


haha :P