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View Full Version : Next generation M cars are going turbo


Trouble65
11-27-2008, 07:08 AM
I knew this was going to happen. It was matter of time. Now the fun really begins.


Tough emissions standards worldwide and soaring manufacturing costs in Germany are behind BMW's decision to switch from high-revving, naturally aspirated engines in its M high-performance vehicles to turbocharged direct-injection powerplants, beginning as early as next year.

The move, which could alter the character of BMW M models, places question marks over the immediate future of the M3's 4.0-liter V8 and the M5's 5.0-liter V10. Both engines will make way for forced-induction engines in coming years, according to high-ranking BMW sources.

The first M vehicle to make the move to the new turbo powerplants is the X6 xDrive M, which will challenge the Porsche Cayenne GTS and the Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG.

Set to appear next June, the X6 xDrive M will be the first model to run BMW M's new twin-turbocharged V8. This engine is also earmarked for the next-generation M5, due out in late 2010.

Based on the standard X6 xDrive 5.0i's 4.4-liter 90-degree V8, the new twin-turbo unit is said to match the current M5's naturally aspirated 5.0-liter V10 for power at 500 hp, while providing as much as 516 lb-ft of torque.

This should be enough to provide the M-powered X6 with 0-to-60 mph acceleration of less than 5 seconds and top speed limited to 155 mph.

"In terms of overall performance, the new engine doesn't give anything away to the powerplant we run now, but it delivers much better consumption and lower emissions," a senior BMW M official told AutoWeek



http://www.autoweek.com/article/20081126/FREE/811269993

330ci05
11-27-2008, 09:56 AM
so the M5 is going back to V8, but now with turbo, so then will the me go back to I6 with turbo????

going to miss the high-revving naturally aspirated engines !!!!!!!

europrince
11-27-2008, 10:03 AM
That's going to be the trend among automakers: Turbo 4s instead of 6s, turbo 6s instead of 8s, etc., all in the name of fuel efficiency and improved carbon emissions.

doogee
11-27-2008, 11:30 AM
poooooo

Axxe
11-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Think of all the tuning capabilities though! Look at what the aftermarket has done to the 135i/335i/535i/x635i motor.

DriveItSideways
11-27-2008, 01:18 PM
boost is your best friend

Fel
11-27-2008, 03:33 PM
I don't see a problem here.... as long as its reliable and tested, it shouldn't be a detriment. If anything, it's got win written all over it.

bimmerjoe
11-27-2008, 08:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the new x6 5.0i already in compition withthe ml 63? And what is going to be the difference with the x6 5.0i and the m x6?

///MG
11-27-2008, 09:01 PM
Why not keep the V8 in the M3 and toss in 2 turbos? *mw**drink*

M3ti Compact
11-27-2008, 10:16 PM
You only got to worry when they go Diesel for M cars

naplese30
11-28-2008, 09:12 AM
Whats the life span of a turbo,,, maybee 100k if you let it warm up and cool down properly? Long term I dont like it at all, but you gotta love the torque of a turboed engine

King Luis
11-28-2008, 10:18 AM
life span is much longer then that with factory turbo cars. they don't run much pressure stock. its when turbos start running 15psi and higher does the life span start to really shorten (depending on the turbo)
i doubt bmw's 8psi does anything at all on life span to the turbos.
so my next m3 will probably be turbo. :P

EMPOWERD
11-28-2008, 10:29 AM
A sad day for the automotive industry. HP isn't everything... go drive a (tuned) 335i, then hop straight into an E92 M3... you'll see what i'm talking about. You just get this "disconnected" feeling in the I6-TT motor (albeit torquey). TPS maps can only be altered so much, you will never get rid of annoying turbo lag.

Ant118
11-28-2008, 10:54 AM
NA is the only way for a M car considered that they are built to be taken to the track. Boost is your worst enemy there. Espically when heat starts to build up. Id take NA over boost any day.

EMPOWERD
11-28-2008, 12:36 PM
^^ exactly my point. Day-to-day driving wise, the torquey 3.0L-TT motor is great for zipping through traffic. On a road course, there's nothing like the crisp throttle response of an N/A motor when doing heal/toe manuvers and mid corner modulation. I think BMW ///M division should keep their 120+HP/Liter N/A motors and focus on SERIOUSLY DIETING THEIR CARS. Extensive use of carbon composites, aluminum etc.. whatever it takes to get them 250+kg lighter than their non-M versions.

doogee
11-28-2008, 12:47 PM
Yeah it seems the newer cars are getting way too big and fancy.
Seems like they're kind of slipping away from being an "M"
They should all be like the CSL*rockout*

...well maybe a tad more practical.

bmwm5lover
11-28-2008, 12:53 PM
Real deal ///M cars died with the e36 M3 euro.

The e39 M/e46 M, are nice, but they still have too many electronic gizmos and seem like they might be a bit too disconnected.(I have only ridden in them, so I can't speak for a fact).

Fel
11-28-2008, 03:12 PM
^^ exactly my point. Day-to-day driving wise, the torquey 3.0L-TT motor is great for zipping through traffic. On a road course, there's nothing like the crisp throttle response of an N/A motor when doing heal/toe manuvers and mid corner modulation. I think BMW ///M division should keep their 120+HP/Liter N/A motors and focus on SERIOUSLY DIETING THEIR CARS. Extensive use of carbon composites, aluminum etc.. whatever it takes to get them 250+kg lighter than their non-M versions.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Most "sports" cars these days... aren't. They're so full of useless luxury crap so that their wealthy owners can get a back massage and warm their ass while listening to satellite radio and follow their gps to the nearest members only. It's retarded. I can understand that for the major money you need to put out these days, people want a little something in return, but so much of it is unnecessary.

Sports cars should have a throttle and a wheel. If you want a fast luxury car, call it that. Don't try to do both.

MiroE36
11-28-2008, 04:39 PM
I say A 24 cylinder 8 turbo in a coil-overed shopping cart is the only real solution here. Period.

JunzieB
11-28-2008, 06:06 PM
I say A 24 cylinder 8 turbo in a coil-overed shopping cart is the only real solution here. Period.

That sounds mighty powerful. But how are you going to fit a 24 cylinder engine in a shopping cart?:D

spoony_prelude
11-28-2008, 07:45 PM
its a scary thought. think of it like this. most of those turbo M's will defenatly have boost increased by the new owners. 2 years after the lease is over, everything goes back to stock. you go out and buy this 2 year old M with high expectations, and all your going to end up with is a lemon thats spitting out more oil the Mc'Donalds deep friers!

I say **** Turbos in M cars! Heck throw them in the alpinas! M's have always been known for high compression high reving torquey motors.
Jay

maroli
11-29-2008, 03:39 AM
Real deal ///M cars died with the e36 M3 euro.

The e39 M/e46 M, are nice, but they still have too many electronic gizmos and seem like they might be a bit too disconnected.(I have only ridden in them, so I can't speak for a fact).


the fact is that the e36 had as bad steering feel as the e46. They remain deeply challenging chassis tho...the e46 in no way is a bad car. Most serious car mags WILL rate the e46 as a better car than the e36 M3

Mystikal
11-29-2008, 10:32 AM
lol, the purist arguments are coming out.

Fact is, the "real" enthusiasts who want hardcore track machines aren't buying BMWs, and never have been. It's a luxury sports sedan, and this is not new. BMW does market research, and this is what the $100k+ junior executives demand from a car (lots of power, insane handling numbers, electronic features galore, etc etc). It's an everything car, if you want real performance you'd be driving an Elise, or a kit car.

Sure, the M brand philosophy established with the M1 and then passed on the E30 M3 is vastly different from what has gone on since (hell even the E24 and E28 models are pretty OFF from the track story fairy tales), but people don't really want that today. If they did, BMW would be importing CSLs and actually building 135 Tii models.

bmwm5lover
11-29-2008, 12:34 PM
lol, the purist arguments are coming out.

Fact is, the "real" enthusiasts who want hardcore track machines aren't buying BMWs, and never have been. It's a luxury sports sedan, and this is not new. BMW does market research, and this is what the $100k+ junior executives demand from a car (lots of power, insane handling numbers, electronic features galore, etc etc). It's an everything car, if you want real performance you'd be driving an Elise, or a kit car.

Sure, the M brand philosophy established with the M1 and then passed on the E30 M3 is vastly different from what has gone on since (hell even the E24 and E28 models are pretty OFF from the track story fairy tales), but people don't really want that today. If they did, BMW would be importing CSLs and actually building 135 Tii models.

I disagree to some extent. Some of us want just enough luxuries to make daily driving comfortible, but also want a real driver car, something that gives you feedback, doesn't have any traction control ammenities, is play down and dirty fun.

That is why I like how a lot of cars in europe you can get as an S(regular) or as an LE. The e34 M5 could be had as a bare bones front power windows only, or as a fully loaded, leather et all rocket ship.

I feel that they need to continue this trend.

If I was buying a brand new BMW 135 or 335i tomorow, I would want, PW, Sunroof, nice sound system, and AC. I don't need the million other gadgets that would come in a 335i. They weight the car down. The provide more unnecesary distractions for the driver, and are just plain useless 85% of the time.

BTW, I am not a hardcore purist. If I was, I would be raving how the underpowered, cool looking, 4 banger, equivalent of a Civic(albeit much better), is the greatest thing since slice bread.

uber e36
11-29-2008, 03:17 PM
^^ But reality is the majority of new M3 buyers are not like you (with no offense meant).

The only turbo car I have driven is my S4. I've chipped it and I now lover turbos. But I have run into the lag problem once or twice when I was creeping along slowly in 2nd gear and when I go to accelerate.... nothing. :(

Trouble65
11-29-2008, 05:49 PM
They should supercharge the new M cars. Better power curve, powers there when you need it.

Mystikal
12-01-2008, 01:46 PM
^^ But reality is the majority of new M3 buyers are not like you (with no offense meant).

Exactly what Geoff said. Terry, you don't fit the demographic of a typical new M buyer. You know, 30+ year old average age and $150k+ annual salary, etc. More like 40+ and $250k+ for an M5/M6.

Mystikal
12-01-2008, 01:47 PM
They should supercharge the new M cars. Better power curve, powers there when you need it.

With one of the main goals being fuel economy, there's just no way.

Gamite
12-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Enthusiasts car will probably now come in the way of a light weight CSL 1 series (Return of the Evo?)

bmwm5lover
12-01-2008, 05:39 PM
Exactly what Geoff said. Terry, you don't fit the demographic of a typical new M buyer. You know, 30+ year old average age and $150k+ annual salary, etc. More like 40+ and $250k+ for an M5/M6.

Sadly, you are right. Most of us do not fall under the targeted demographic.
I do feel that having two variants of the same car is a good way to attract more(younger?) potential buyers.

SamE30e
12-01-2008, 06:28 PM
Whats the life span of a turbo,,, maybee 100k if you let it warm up and cool down properly? Long term I dont like it at all, but you gotta love the torque of a turboed engine


life span is much longer then that with factory turbo cars. they don't run much pressure stock. its when turbos start running 15psi and higher does the life span start to really shorten (depending on the turbo)
i doubt bmw's 8psi does anything at all on life span to the turbos.
so my next m3 will probably be turbo. :P



Wtf... Are you guys serious? I've had a turbo car in my driveway that had 300K on it. Everything original, it saw 20psi a couple times and took it like a champ.

craz azn
12-01-2008, 07:06 PM
Sadly, you are right. Most of us do not fall under the targeted demographic.
I do feel that having two variants of the same car is a good way to attract more(younger?) potential buyers.

I don't think its beneficial for the manufacturer to make two variations. It just becomes two of everything. Two time cost and time of development, crash testing etc etc... And then they have two versions to sell, one of which will probably be the lesser in terms of sales... remember car manufacturers are here to make money...

Wtf... Are you guys serious? I've had a turbo car in my driveway that had 300K on it. Everything original, it saw 20psi a couple times and took it like a champ.

O RLY? 20psi for all 300k? *wiggle*

naplese30
12-01-2008, 07:21 PM
Unfortunetly ,speacial low option low weight variants always cost an arm and a leg more which prices them out of the younger hardcore drivers price range. Also who wants to pay a few hundred dollars for a track day only to have their car go into limp mode because overheating issues....335I anyone

bmwm5lover
12-02-2008, 10:32 AM
I don't think its beneficial for the manufacturer to make two variations. It just becomes two of everything. Two time cost and time of development, crash testing etc etc... And then they have two versions to sell, one of which will probably be the lesser in terms of sales... remember car manufacturers are here to make money...



They will still make money.

Having a 135i with only manual sport CLOTH interior, PW, AC, and a nice audio system, available in 6spd manual with the BBK etc, will price A LOT lower than the full bells and whistles moels they sell now.
One will be like 32K the other will be 45K$. People like me, might be less reluctant to dump the 32K and pick one up.

Same with the M3, it comes with all the electronic gizmos that are needed to send a space shuttle to the space station, at a hefty price of like 70K.
Now, If they just make a version available with only cloth recaros, PW, AC, Sound system, the price of the car just became 50K. Once again, someone like me might say to themselves, hey this is justified now, I am not dumping AS MUCH money on a new car with all sorts of crap I don't need.

You don't think these "base" models will sell well, right along its more expensive version, which, will be purchased by the types of people Mystikal described?

I mean, honestly, the e60 M5 doesn't even appeal to me that much anymore. Not only are they EVERYWHERE, but it seems like besides all the power, they probably lack a lot of the true M car feel? I mean I've never driven one, so it is al speculations, but you know what I am saying?

Mystikal
12-02-2008, 01:50 PM
But Terry, what you don't realize is that having that cheap stripper model will also reduce sales of the normal model (which is a more profitable product).

Any increase in net sales will only be offset by that.

Also, the E36 M3 came pretty stripped in the US. No sunroof, no cruise, no leather, no OBC...etc. It was discredited in the press for it.

ShortShifter
12-02-2008, 02:11 PM
You only got to worry when they go Diesel for M cars

Why? Diesel race engines are awesome*rockout*

JazzM
12-02-2008, 04:20 PM
Well when you bring in the guy who ran AMG for Mercedes to run M GmBH we will likely see a lot of fundemental changes. Including X5/X6 M cars, etc...

///M now stands for ///Marketing and you can't have a non-M car with more power then the M version.

T.

Trouble65
12-03-2008, 01:42 PM
With one of the main goals being fuel economy, there's just no way.

With my m3 being supercharged I can't see the difference at all in mileage. However step on the pedal too hard don't matter N/A, turbo or supercharger your mileage will suffer.

e30bim
12-03-2008, 01:52 PM
^^ exactly my point. Day-to-day driving wise, the torquey 3.0L-TT motor is great for zipping through traffic. On a road course, there's nothing like the crisp throttle response of an N/A motor when doing heal/toe manuvers and mid corner modulation. I think BMW ///M division should keep their 120+HP/Liter N/A motors and focus on SERIOUSLY DIETING THEIR CARS. Extensive use of carbon composites, aluminum etc.. whatever it takes to get them 250+kg lighter than their non-M versions.

Well put. I think turbo's are for people with small cocks. NA is the only way to go. It's real muscle, turbos are like cars bodybuilding on steroids.

csl_barbie
01-13-2009, 04:11 PM
Anything with a blow off valve gets me wet

spoony_prelude
01-13-2009, 06:02 PM
^^^ nice lol.

Jay

BMW325IS
01-13-2009, 08:16 PM
So now M cars= FI HP gains + Heavy Chasis+ Electrionics? ..I thought MB AMGs are like this...

TNation
01-14-2009, 02:13 AM
hey its not like BMW to do this, but i'm curious to test drive a stock turbo M3 now haha

AMG_POWER
01-14-2009, 12:25 PM
SHould've done it long time ago.

TNation
01-14-2009, 12:42 PM
SHould've done it long time ago.

the competition hasn't been doing this, unless you count the WRX STI as competition (which it really isn't)

AMG_POWER
01-14-2009, 07:27 PM
the competition hasn't been doing this, unless you count the WRX STI as competition (which it really isn't)

what if competition is going to ride off a cliff?

TNation
01-14-2009, 07:44 PM
what if competition is going to ride off a cliff?

It would be a pretty different world then!