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View Full Version : couldn't downshift into 1st from 3rd, heard whining noise


maroli
07-26-2008, 04:42 PM
hello. some of you may know that I bought a used e36 off my brother and it was sitting unused for a good while so I've been discovering some problems

The gearshift was working great, but today as I came to the parking lot, I tried to shift down from 3rd to 1st and the gear wouldn't slot home. After high effort, it finally did, but I heard a faint whining from the car, could almost feel it through the shift knob. After that shifting into 1st and 2nd started being high effort and much notchier than normal. Its really hard to downshift into those two gears now without a harder than normal push. Is this because the tranny fluid might not have been changed for a long time?
thanks

Gamite
07-26-2008, 04:46 PM
How fast were you going? there's a safety lock that prevents you from moving into 1st.

dbworld4k
07-26-2008, 04:48 PM
That, and sometimes going into 1st while stopped is sometimes high effort in E36 and E46 cars. What helps is going into 2nd and then slot up into 1st.

mudmojo
07-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Well executed double clutch downshifts are required in most cars to get into 1st at any appreciable speed without harming the drivetrain too much. Well at least from my personal experience anyway...

maroli
07-26-2008, 04:53 PM
maybe that's it then, it did slot into first as I slowed, but thereafter getting into first and second became much notchier. I'll see if it goes away next time I take her out

Gamite
07-26-2008, 04:57 PM
does the car have a short shift kit?

Kal
07-26-2008, 05:22 PM
If you do not mind me asking, are you new at driving manual? I ask this because I wonder why you would ever downsift from 3rd to 1st? If i am in 3rd gear I am usually travelling anywhere from 35km - 70 kméhr (and this was in my 328) If you are in a parking lot you should never even be in 3rd gear considering you can not travel faster then 40kméhr in most lots.

maroli
07-26-2008, 05:29 PM
lol, I don't mind you asking, at my apartment, a nice straight piece of road leads into (after a left turn) a ramp for my parking lot, so I was approaching it at truthfully, higher than normal speed, and I slowed for the ramp. and wanted to shift into first so my car didn't stutter up the ramp :) The heatshield is loose and it makes a ridiculous rattling at low revs and its embarassing

and no ssk

Kal
07-26-2008, 05:33 PM
The only time you should shift into 1st is when you are at a complete or almost complete stop otherwise your car should be in 2nd. I can only imagine how much the car must jerk downsifting from 3rd to 1st.

maroli
07-26-2008, 05:50 PM
yeah, agreed, I don't do it normally, just when I have to go up the ramp...I slow down almost to a standstill due to the lowered suspension and not wanting to bottom out, but I guess I'll keep it at an angle and go at it at a higher speed

NipponM5
07-27-2008, 11:25 AM
Hey check out my post "bad clutch pedal/ master cylinder" just in case.


I don't think theres anything wrong with shifting from 3rd to 1st. Depends on the situation. For example, say I'm driving in third...and all os a sudden traffic slows way down.....I should be able to hit the clucth , take it out of third ...throw it into 1st while the clutch is still out. Then I can judge wether to put it into 1st if I end up at an almost stopped position or throw it back to 2nd if traffic picks up.

I've driven a lot of manuals...if you do it right in the right situation theres no problem. Only you truly know how your car reacts to it.

I would get the problem checked out for sure. DOn't wanna grind up them gears!

Dr. Flyview
07-27-2008, 12:53 PM
I think you are feeling the effects of how hard the synchros have to work if you don't double clutch...

Try double clutching, and if you do it right, it should slip in much easier!

maroli
07-27-2008, 04:09 PM
yeah, my first thought was synchro whine, otherwise maybe someone swapped in a straight-cut first gear like in the old jaguar e-types :D

Arash
07-27-2008, 04:51 PM
double clutch + proper rev-match (not too much, not too little) and you won't have no problems. I would change the tranny fluid too just in case.

The only time you should shift into 1st is when you are at a complete or almost complete stop otherwise your car should be in 2nd. I can only imagine how much the car must jerk downsifting from 3rd to 1st.

it would jerk even more if he attempts to take the ramp in second... oh wait, maybe he should just coast in neutral to save gas? lol

thinair
07-27-2008, 06:51 PM
How fast were you going? there's a safety lock that prevents you from moving into 1st.

There is no safety lock. I shift into first at speed all the time during an auto-x. Also, no double clutching is necessary. All that needs to be done is a rev match. The whine is just the first gear synchro trying to speed up the input shaft before the clutch is engaged. You can shift into 1st gear smoothly and without the whine at up to 50km/h if you rev match. If you don't rev match it's very hard on the synchro, especially at speed.

Boss17
07-27-2008, 08:09 PM
This is gonna sound like such a newb question but what is double clutching?

As far as the situation goes, I see no real need to shift from 3rd to 1st. Even if you're rev matching, once you engage you're reving wayyyy to high. Now if you were breaking considerably when trying to downshift into 1st, that's a whole different story. That's all I have to say on that.

maroli
07-27-2008, 11:42 PM
double clutching, or double de clutching is the method they used to use when downshifting on a non synchro gearbox, you dip the clutch, shift to neutral, dip the clutch again and then into the gear you want

thinair
07-27-2008, 11:45 PM
double clutching, or double de clutching is the method they used to use when downshifting on a non synchro gearbox, you dip the clutch, shift to neutral, dip the clutch again and then into the gear you want

Yeah, I'm not to sure why people keep suggesting double clutching. Pretty much 99.9% of the cars on the road have synchromesh transmissions.

Arash
07-28-2008, 12:07 AM
helps reduce wear on the synchros, also helps when your synchros are dead like in half the honda's on the road :)

mudmojo
07-28-2008, 12:10 AM
The way I understand it, the synchros is a clutch itself... a mini clutch if you will.

If you don't rev match the input shaft (either via residual momentum from the previous gear + a momentary lapse OR via double clutching) then you risk the burning out the synchros prematurely.

I think double clutching origins have more to do with keeping a racecar out of pit lane by allowing the tranny to last and to not upset balance when braking on traction sketchy conditions. (ie. gravel, snow, puddles, broken pavement, etc)

maroli
07-28-2008, 12:29 AM
good skill to have with a racing tranny that you want to keep intact for the whole race, they used to do in formula 1, although with syncro trannies, if you can rev match downshifting, there's really no use double clutching

Lower_Level
07-28-2008, 10:45 AM
who's got time to hit the clutch twice when shifting???

maroli
07-28-2008, 11:29 AM
DOWNSHIFTING, jeez. They don't even use the clutch while upshifting while racing on non synchro trannies

SamE30e
07-28-2008, 12:01 PM
Why don't you just go 3rd, 2nd, 1st... not 3rd 1st.. haha

maroli
07-28-2008, 12:05 PM
Why don't you just go 3rd, 2nd, 1st... not 3rd 1st.. haha

haha, cause I can't heel-toe that well...ever seen best motoring? those guys can heel toe every gear downshifting

T.Dot_E30
07-28-2008, 12:50 PM
haha, cause I can't heel-toe that well...ever seen best motoring? those guys can heel toe every gear downshifting

Heel-toeing is used to rev match while downshifting during braking. You can downshift to 2nd and not rev match. So you shouldn't need to heel-toe, althought it's better if you did.

But it's much harder to downshift into first without rev matching. The only time i need to downshift hard into first, is during auto crossing. Otherwise im almost at a complete stop when shifting into first.

thinair
07-28-2008, 01:08 PM
who's got time to hit the clutch twice when shifting???

Vin Diesel does.

punnzzells
07-28-2008, 01:09 PM
Rofl!

Lower_Level
07-28-2008, 02:12 PM
Vin Diesel does.


HA HA! That just made my day!

maroli
07-28-2008, 03:00 PM
double clutching instead of granny shifting

what an idiot

INFAMOU$
07-28-2008, 04:52 PM
You have bad synchros..

/Thread

Dr. Flyview
07-29-2008, 12:19 AM
= double clutch (by definition includes a rev match) to save them as much as possible

davericher20
07-30-2008, 04:28 PM
all I know is it's very hard and it feels like I'm killing my car when I downshift from 2 to 1st while I'm still moving.

So I don't do it.

thinair
07-30-2008, 06:31 PM
all I know is it's very hard and it feels like I'm killing my car when I downshift from 2 to 1st while I'm still moving.

So I don't do it.

It slips right in if you rev match first.

davericher20
07-31-2008, 04:01 AM
It slips right in if you rev match first.

Okay, good to know.

But I don't see the point in revving it up to fit in 1st to come up to a turn that you can easily do in 2nd. Unless it's a sharp ****ing turn uphill.

Otherwise 2nd does just fine coming to stops and turning.

mudmojo
07-31-2008, 04:30 AM
I can see why people with a personally owned daily driver refrain from doing this... because it tends to be more convenient and there is that fear of the unknown. Once you know how to downshift well (ie. without shocking the drivetrain), I suspect you will do it quite often as it uses your engine powerband more efficiently.

Sometimes I like to think that if they do their best to impose a speed limit, then we'll get there as quickly as possible. *th-up*

BTW, lugging around in 2nd at low speeds is not exactly good for your tranny either.

thinair
07-31-2008, 11:55 AM
Okay, good to know.

But I don't see the point in revving it up to fit in 1st to come up to a turn that you can easily do in 2nd. Unless it's a sharp ****ing turn uphill.

Otherwise 2nd does just fine coming to stops and turning.

It's not useful at all on the street. I only ever need to go back into 1st while moving at an autocross before a really tight corner. I don't even use 1st when stopping at a stop sign, 2nd has more than enough torque to get the car moving with little clutch slip.

maroli
07-31-2008, 03:29 PM
I only put it to first when I have a ramp :)

INFAMOU$
07-31-2008, 03:39 PM
lol is this thread still going? i thought i "/thread" a long time ago.... everyone on here has their own driving habits and unless there was a driving god that has it written somewhere about when/where to use 1st gear then there is no point on discussing it :S

maroli
07-31-2008, 03:42 PM
haha, I've always noticed that '/thread' never has the desired effect

davericher20
07-31-2008, 03:46 PM
I can see why people with a personally owned daily driver refrain from doing this... because it tends to be more convenient and there is that fear of the unknown. Once you know how to downshift well (ie. without shocking the drivetrain), I suspect you will do it quite often as it uses your engine powerband more efficiently.

Sometimes I like to think that if they do their best to impose a speed limit, then we'll get there as quickly as possible. *th-up*

BTW, lugging around in 2nd at low speeds is not exactly good for your tranny either.

We're obviously not gonna lug around in second, it's coming to stops and turning, if I was an expert at double clutching and I'm on a track, I'll learn how to do it. BUt city driving, I don't think it's practical to come to an intersection or stop downshifting into first. Off the line yeah, but not coming to a stop. I'm not gonna rev my engine just so I can get an extra gear in.

davericher20
07-31-2008, 03:47 PM
It's not useful at all on the street. I only ever need to go back into 1st while moving at an autocross before a really tight corner. I don't even use 1st when stopping at a stop sign, 2nd has more than enough torque to get the car moving with little clutch slip.

exactly