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View Full Version : Lets talk piggy back


DriveItSideways
07-22-2008, 11:48 AM
So I have made a few discussions on other forums about piggy back options, id like to see what you all think here on max.

Im looking for a user friendly piggy back system, not intrested in a full EMS because my goal is only 300-350whp.

I know of the Apexi safcII (discontinued) and the replacement Apexi Neo. As of right now the Neo is at the top of the list.

Are there any other suggestions? I know Blitz has a fuel computer but havent heard much about it.

Any input is appreciated.

MarkD
07-22-2008, 12:09 PM
Well here's my reply!



http://www.motleyzoo.com/images/StephnTaylorPiggyback%20web.jpg

kevin325
07-22-2008, 12:35 PM
Well here's my reply!



http://www.motleyzoo.com/images/StephnTaylorPiggyback%20web.jpg

LOL!!!!

///tyron
07-22-2008, 12:56 PM
what about the Apexi Power FC?

DriveItSideways
07-22-2008, 01:02 PM
what about the Apexi Power FC?

Sorry I should have mentioned it has to be under $1,000

///tyron
07-22-2008, 02:38 PM
buy a used PFC, you can get them for $800.

i wish bmw had more avaliable options like this and not a $1400 tune from AA

MarkD
07-22-2008, 02:52 PM
buy a used PFC, you can get them for $800.

i wish bmw had more avaliable options like this and not a $1400 tune from AA

There are other options, most of you just don't want to take those routes!

///tyron
07-22-2008, 03:30 PM
There are other options, most of you just don't want to take those routes!

what do you recomend? im currently turboing an e36 M52, and stumped as to what management to run.

Hamann330ci
07-22-2008, 04:01 PM
Any off the stand-alone or piggy backs are going to cost you some good coin, when getting into these types of projects thats what you can expect. Unless the turbo has software with it.

Other then that is knowing someone with a software wrighting program that you can go to the dyno with to tune.

Is there anyone out here that has this, I my self need to make a tune for my car but don't have the software to do so.

You can also look into getting a dyno done but with the A/F plotted on the chart and getting them to tune from there but it will be alot of back and fourth. I was thinking of this

Boots R
07-22-2008, 04:04 PM
Any off the stand-alone or piggy backs are going to cost you some good coin, when getting into these types of projects thats what you can expect. Unless the turbo has software with it.

Other then that is knowing someone with a software wrighting program that you can go to the dyno with to tune.

Is there anyone out here that has this, I my self need to make a tune for my car but don't have the software to do so.

You can also look into getting a dyno done but with the A/F plotted on the chart and getting them to tune from there but it will be alot of back and fourth. I was thinking of this

www.dsylva-tech.ca

DriveItSideways
07-22-2008, 04:44 PM
Anyone have experience with the greddy emanage?

AceOfSpades
07-22-2008, 07:07 PM
lol

FuryriderX
07-22-2008, 10:27 PM
megasquirt it, or chip it. piggybacks will always piss you off. unless they fall under the category that mark posted.

/thread

kevin325
07-23-2008, 12:43 PM
www.dsylva-tech.ca

x2.

NOTORIOUS VR
07-23-2008, 11:42 PM
If you really don't want to bother with a full standalone, then tuning u'r stock ECU is the way to go... piggy backs like the ones you listed, or Greddy's E-damage, etc are all just problems waiting to happen.

Seems like you need to call Mark D as stated above.

DriveItSideways
07-24-2008, 09:02 AM
What kind of problems does the piggy back cause?

This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535 :P

Bruno
07-24-2008, 09:39 AM
What kind of problems does the piggy back cause?

This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535 :P

The 535i is amazing when turbocharged... I used piggy back SMT6 and SMT7 with both my race car and a friend's 535i turbo.
Well, not as good as a full stand alone but does the job somewhat.
Both these units are for sale.

The problem is that the BMW computer will fight the mods that you are doing because it is trying to adjust for the amount of fuel you are sending. (BMW computer is adaptive). So you need Mark D to make a chip that removes the adaptability of the BMW Computer.

For non BMW application, you will have to learn about the DME.

I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...

SamE30e
07-24-2008, 11:42 AM
Anyone have experience with the greddy emanage?

E-Manage isn't that great for boosted applications. Sure you have the option of using a MAP sensor and it does have boost retard settings but it isn't all that great. Basically like all other piggybacks it's tricking the DME into thinking that it's doing something it's not. E-Manage is more for an all motor application where there isn't an insane amount of airflow difference. Thats why a good amount of Honda guys used to use them back when the E-manage blue came out, it has a built in Vtec controller and can control additional injectors (which would work for boosted applications, if it worked well).

SamE30e
07-24-2008, 11:44 AM
I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...

Megasquirt is the poor man's stand alone *wave*

I saw the trailer was gone from the driveway, I was hoping the 635 was on it and ripping it around the track. *th-up*

MarkD
07-24-2008, 09:06 PM
The 535i is amazing when turbocharged... I used piggy back SMT6 and SMT7 with both my race car and a friend's 535i turbo.
Well, not as good as a full stand alone but does the job somewhat.
Both these units are for sale.

The problem is that the BMW computer will fight the mods that you are doing because it is trying to adjust for the amount of fuel you are sending. (BMW computer is adaptive). So you need Mark D to make a chip that removes the adaptability of the BMW Computer.

For non BMW application, you will have to learn about the DME.

I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...

Actually, adaptation can be turned back on after tuning. The big problem with a piggyback is that they usually modify the LOAD signal from the AFM or MAF. That load signal, plus the rpm are two inputs into the 3-d maps for timing, so the timing gets adjusted when the porkyback adjusts the load. If anyone was interested in a turbo 535, I'd probably remove the AFM and install a MAP sensor, and tune it to run with that. Alternatively, I could install a MAF on it.
If you are going to Bimmersport's BBQ on Sunday, you can see Tommy D's red stage 3 supercharged 325iS with s52, all the WOT tuning is done, there's a bit more to do on the part throttle fueling. But in runs like a rocket now. *uzi*

Tony the Tiger
07-31-2008, 12:54 AM
People steer away from piggybacks because they rely the the system to do all sorts of crazy things...lol Guys wanting 400+ WHP builds on a piggyback, controlling injectors more than double the factory size, needing timing control well over +/- 10 deg, or cope with aggressive cams and needing idle control and whatnot... Those are not what you want a piggyback to do.

You really have to hear from people who have experience with all sorts of systems on different platforms. I recommend E-manage, both blue or Ultimate for most custom applications if there isn't anything out there for your car.

The secret is to know how to implement the piggyback system and work in parallel with your stock ECU. Anytime you want to make a change that the stock ECU will fight against, you are looking for trouble. The real skill is to wire it and set up the E-manage in a manner that the stock ECU doesn't know it even exists.

Now as to how to do it, it goes well beyond what I can type here on the forums. But I use E-manage on turbocharged and S/C BMW's, Hondas, Toyotas, Volvos, VW's and so forth. Whenever I have friends or customers that b*tch about chip programs, email tunes, or softwares from half the world away which runs like crap, that's when a piggyback becomes a great tool to fine tune the car. Every car/model/year is always different, and often I have to dial in the E-manage with different features enabled/disabled and blind the stock ECU on certain parameters on different year cars; but if there are no simple tuning solution out there, the E-manage is a great system for a low/med boost setup :)

DriveItSideways
07-31-2008, 08:21 AM
People steer away from piggybacks because they rely the the system to do all sorts of crazy things...lol Guys wanting 400+ WHP builds on a piggyback, controlling injectors more than double the factory size, needing timing control well over +/- 10 deg, or cope with aggressive cams and needing idle control and whatnot... Those are not what you want a piggyback to do.

You really have to hear from people who have experience with all sorts of systems on different platforms. I recommend E-manage, both blue or Ultimate for most custom applications if there isn't anything out there for your car.

The secret is to know how to implement the piggyback system and work in parallel with your stock ECU. Anytime you want to make a change that the stock ECU will fight against, you are looking for trouble. The real skill is to wire it and set up the E-manage in a manner that the stock ECU doesn't know it even exists.

Now as to how to do it, it goes well beyond what I can type here on the forums. But I use E-manage on turbocharged and S/C BMW's, Hondas, Toyotas, Volvos, VW's and so forth. Whenever I have friends or customers that b*tch about chip programs, email tunes, or softwares from half the world away which runs like crap, that's when a piggyback becomes a great tool to fine tune the car. Every car/model/year is always different, and often I have to dial in the E-manage with different features enabled/disabled and blind the stock ECU on certain parameters on different year cars; but if there are no simple tuning solution out there, the E-manage is a great system for a low/med boost setup :)

I see you tune apexi systems, I might check you out when my apexi neo gets shipped. It will be going into my Pulsar GtiR. Realistically im looking for 300-350whp, which should be easy to get with minor bolts ons (injectors, afm, fuel pump)

PedroBMW
08-06-2008, 11:51 PM
I recall reading on bimmerforums about 2 differnt guys tryin to run emanage on there s50/s52. From what I remember it was a pain in the ass, and not entirely straightforward including wiring up some resistor boxes to run the coils. If you search you'll probaly find them, I think they even did a write up of how to do it.

If I'm not mistaken one guy ended up finally selling it and going with a tune from nickG and I think the other guy played around with MS for a while after and now runs a tune from Mike McCoy @ TRM. IMO the DME tunes are the best way to go if you just wanna set it and forget it rather than fiddle with the piggybacks forever.

NOTORIOUS VR
08-07-2008, 08:56 AM
piggy backs are a waste of time and money. Stick with a tuned dme or go stand alone.

DriveItSideways
08-07-2008, 10:56 AM
How is piggy back a waste?

I dont need a full ems to tune just a few increments. Im not looking for crazy power, maybe an extra 50hp
with supporting mods (upgraded maf, boost increase -5psi higher than stock, fuel pump)

If anything, an ems is a complete waste of time and money in my situation, i will still be using oem turbo/intercooler/ignition (except maf) / injectors.

NOTORIOUS VR
08-07-2008, 07:02 PM
How is piggy back a waste?

I dont need a full ems to tune just a few increments. Im not looking for crazy power, maybe an extra 50hp
with supporting mods (upgraded maf, boost increase -5psi higher than stock, fuel pump)

If anything, an ems is a complete waste of time and money in my situation, i will still be using oem turbo/intercooler/ignition (except maf) / injectors.

Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.

MarkD
08-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.


That's right. Piggy backs are for girls. And the TCD chips are developed here in Toronto.

Mystikal
08-07-2008, 10:12 PM
Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.
...
This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535 :P

NOTORIOUS VR
08-08-2008, 01:24 AM
^^^ well BMW application or not... Piggy backs are not a good way to do ANYTHING.

If you do some research on how they actually work you'd want to stay far away from them.

DriveItSideways
08-08-2008, 04:45 PM
^^^ well BMW application or not... Piggy backs are not a good way to do ANYTHING.

If you do some research on how they actually work you'd want to stay far away from them.


I understand that piggy's fool the ecu into thinking its doing something its not, and I understand that DET is more likely to happen because of this. But what your not realizing is that the adjustments im looking to make are extremely minimal.
If I was supporting turbo upgrades or major enhancements then I would never ever consider a piggy back.
So, I do agree with what your saying but im 100% positive that in my case its not as critical to have standalone when all the parameters will still be in the range of the original mapping.

This is all healthy convo for me, its good to see everyones take on the topic.. ive gotten responses saying that piggyback is the way to go, others say im gonna blow the car up.. I guess time will only tell!

Once I have it installed and tuned I'll check back with a report on what I think. (Apexi Neo is what im getting)

Feel free to keep the comments coming :)

NOTORIOUS VR
08-08-2008, 09:08 PM
What car are u doing this to, and is there no tuned ECU that will do what a piggyback will do for you in this case?

DriveItSideways
08-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Its a 91 Pulsar GtiR, 2.0T

Stock turbo, 5-8psi boost increase, upgraded fuel pump and maf.

I can get a MINES ecu from overseas, but it would cost the same as a full ems.

NOTORIOUS VR
08-12-2008, 05:08 PM
hmmm.... what do other people do for a mild boost increase like that?

DriveItSideways
04-17-2009, 07:35 PM
Well I caved in today. Posting as a follow up for the thread, I went ahead and ordered a Haltech Platinum Sport 1000. Shortly after posting this thread my plan changed to sell the car. Ive now changed the plan again and im going to hold onto it for awhile. So now id like to throw down some hp, set up the suspension.. and then go from there.

Features of the Sport 1000 :

- Soft cut rev limiter
- Closed loop boost control
- Stepper motor and BAC/IAC closed loop idle control
- User-definable mapping points
- Anti-lag launch control with rotational idle
- Wideband closed loop 02 Control
- 8 additional user-definable inputs
- 4 additional user-definable outputs
- Tuning via TPS with Manifold Correction
- Numerous Correction Maps
- Onboard Data logging
- Windows Software

http://www.haltech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94&Itemid=77


I currently have no a/f monitors, im looking at getting the Innovative DB kit - http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/db.php



Once these are installed its time to go get some C16 *mw*

The patient :

The Sly
05-10-2009, 08:21 PM
Just to add in that i have a SMT6 perfect Power for sale which is a nice pc programmable unit to do some piggyback work for turbo and S/c add on or even replace the AFM with a Maf...

pm me for more info

The Sly