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View Full Version : Battery and high out put alternator question


Romaz
02-25-2008, 11:17 AM
Hi guys, it seems like my stock battery may need replacing. I would like to replace it with something more powerful that can support my sound system, what do you guys suggest I get? Any specific brands that I should be looking into?

Iím also looking into rebuilding my alternator into a high out put alternator. Any suggestions on where this could be done?

Thanks in advance!

propr'one
02-25-2008, 11:24 AM
Upgrading your battery because of your sound system isn't really necessary. Alternator on the other hand i'd definatly look into. Your battery should only really be used to start the car, and mabye stabilize voltage if the alternator's voltage regulator isn't perfect. But you dont really draw all that much power directly from the battery when the car is running.

If i were you, i'd buy a decent battery (people seem to love optima yellow tops, idunno, i have a OEM battery), but have your alternator re-coiled to 140amps, and make sure you have a good capacitator in line with your amps, power surges can **** with your battery/wiring/alternator

Romaz
02-25-2008, 11:55 AM
Upgrading your battery because of your sound system isn't really necessary. Alternator on the other hand i'd definatly look into. Your battery should only really be used to start the car, and mabye stabilize voltage if the alternator's voltage regulator isn't perfect. But you dont really draw all that much power directly from the battery when the car is running.

If i were you, i'd buy a decent battery (people seem to love optima yellow tops, idunno, i have a OEM battery), but have your alternator re-coiled to 140amps, and make sure you have a good capacitator in line with your amps, power surges can **** with your battery/wiring/alternator


Thanks!

Do you know where I could get my alternator re-coiled? I was thinking more like 200amps tho.

98Dinan3
02-25-2008, 12:28 PM
yellow top here....no complaints about it at all. Put it in over a year ago and havn't even looked at it since.

NOTORIOUS VR
02-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Upgrading your battery because of your sound system isn't really necessary. Alternator on the other hand i'd definatly look into. Your battery should only really be used to start the car, and mabye stabilize voltage if the alternator's voltage regulator isn't perfect. But you dont really draw all that much power directly from the battery when the car is running.

If i were you, i'd buy a decent battery (people seem to love optima yellow tops, idunno, i have a OEM battery), but have your alternator re-coiled to 140amps, and make sure you have a good capacitator in line with your amps, power surges can **** with your battery/wiring/alternator

A battery does a better job at supplying large amp's all of a sudden. So it would be a good idea to get a gel/led acid battery type as well as an upgraded alt.

Also CAPs do nothing and are a waste of space and money.

INFAMOU$
02-25-2008, 12:29 PM
Yellow Top all the way!

Romaz
02-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Dont yellow tops have to be vented? Where is a good place to buy one?

Mickey Knox
02-25-2008, 02:20 PM
i found a 140 amp bosch for 280, at bavarian auto. it doesnt say refurb so i must assume it is new. dont know what recoiling costs.

somebody said caps do nothing, which makes no sense to me as its a fairly straight forward principle and is used everywhere in electornics big and small to even out power spikes and voltage, so why wouldnt it work in audio systems?

you need a beefy amp to refill your battery faster then it uses power for your sound system, a battery more capable of delivering more amps makes sense, however you still will have drops in your voltage, unless you use a cap. i dont use a high power audio system or caps, but this is mostly physicis and that is how i learned it.

Mickey Knox
02-25-2008, 02:34 PM
have a good capacitator in line with your amps, p


I hope you dont say "in Line" as in wiring it through the capacitor. caps need to be parallel with the powersource to do their job. a cap is nothing else then a battery that can deliver its charge faster then a regular battery can with the downside of not holding up the charge as long as a acid battery can.

essentially all a cap does is to smooth out voltage drops due to peak amps, and supply extra amps if need be, it then recharges quickly from the battery.


if you do have it installed in line, then it would make your sound worse as it would just act as a resistor, sorta, kinda.

Romaz
02-25-2008, 02:38 PM
i found a 140 amp bosch for 280, at bavarian auto. it doesnt say refurb so i must assume it is new. dont know what recoiling costs.

somebody said caps do nothing, which makes no sense to me as its a fairly straight forward principle and is used everywhere in electornics big and small to even out power spikes and voltage, so why wouldnt it work in audio systems?

you need a beefy amp to refill your battery faster then it uses power for your sound system, a battery more capable of delivering more amps makes sense, however you still will have drops in your voltage, unless you use a cap. i dont use a high power audio system or caps, but this is mostly physicis and that is how i learned it.


I kind of agree with you about the caps. Originally I had my cap mounted away from the amp and it wasnít doing squat! I remounted it right next to my amp and I could defiantly tell the difference in the bass response. They work, though they do very little if installed incorrectly.

Mickey Knox
02-25-2008, 02:49 PM
i guess caps are like the IT department. they dont seem to do much unless you need them :-) in other words i dont think you can tell the difference if you install them on a system that doesnt really need one. i.e. if your battery can easily supply the amps needed they wont make a difference. I guess putting a system together without one, trying it out and adding one if needed is probably your best bet.

Romaz
02-25-2008, 03:19 PM
i guess caps are like the IT department. they dont seem to do much unless you need them :-) in other words i dont think you can tell the difference if you install them on a system that doesnt really need one. i.e. if your battery can easily supply the amps needed they wont make a difference. I guess putting a system together without one, trying it out and adding one if needed is probably your best bet.


Well I'm running a jl 1000/1 and 3 8w7's so I need all the power I could get *rockout*

INFAMOU$
02-25-2008, 03:57 PM
No Optimas Do NOT require ventilation.. they are 100% sealed... Also, yes CAPS must be inline with the power closest to your distribution block or amp as possible.. They charge and discharge alot faster for that extra little boost of demanded power.

Romaz
02-25-2008, 04:02 PM
So where is the best place to buy one? Wallmart?

INFAMOU$
02-25-2008, 04:21 PM
Wallmart or Costco.. 2 cheapest places to buy em.

$500bimmer
02-25-2008, 04:34 PM
hey hey hey....i didnt steal it....lol you gave it to me!! SUKKAA

Romaz
02-25-2008, 04:39 PM
hey hey hey....i didnt steal it....lol you gave it to me!! SUKKAA

LOL, I think he wants it back now

NOTORIOUS VR
02-25-2008, 04:41 PM
somebody said caps do nothing, which makes no sense to me as its a fairly straight forward principle and is used everywhere in electornics big and small to even out power spikes and voltage, so why wouldnt it work in audio systems?

because it just doesn't work.... One decent draw from the amp and the cap is dead, and does nothing else but take away power from the amp and put a strain on your electrical system.

Caps are useless when it comes to car audio. A good alt., battery, and power/ground wire setup will do worlds more for you then a stupid cap.

Romaz
02-25-2008, 05:19 PM
because it just doesn't work.... One decent draw from the amp and the cap is dead, and does nothing else but take away power from the amp and put a strain on your electrical system.

Caps are useless when it comes to car audio. A good alt., battery, and power/ground wire setup will do worlds more for you then a stupid cap.

Well the cap has to be propely installed for it to work correctly. I'v never seem my cap go dead from one large draw. Ever... Even after testing it for a few minutes on max output. If ur cap goes dead then you have a very weak cap. 1-2 farad caps are usually more then enough...

kevin325
02-25-2008, 05:22 PM
not too thread jack Romaz, but do you guys know how to get rid of sound gains? it sounds like a supercharger installed in my car lol.

Romaz
02-25-2008, 05:42 PM
not too thread jack Romaz, but do you guys know how to get rid of sound gains? it sounds like a supercharger installed in my car lol.

lol I think this thread got jacked along time ago... But its all good. Itís hard to diagnose a gain issue without actually tweaking your system. Gain/distortion could be cause by any component in your sound system, subs, amps, head unit, wiring, crappy cdís etcÖ It could be something as simple as tweaking around with your amp or head unit. Try to figure out where the gain is coming from. If you cant, then take it to a professional sound shop to get them to have a look at it.
Nice sig Kev! Car looks mint :cool:

NOTORIOUS VR
02-25-2008, 06:00 PM
Well the cap has to be propely installed for it to work correctly. I'v never seem my cap go dead from one large draw. Ever... Even after testing it for a few minutes on max output. If ur cap goes dead then you have a very weak cap. 1-2 farad caps are usually more then enough...

ok, everyone has their own oppinion on things like this. Especially caps. But enough people I've talked to & worked with electronics/car audio wise say they're a waste.

here's one site that supports my claims (and i'm sure you can find the opposite), the site has more to do with capacitors themselves in general, but he covers their use in car audio as well:

http://www.bcae1.com/capacitr.htm

Large Caps and Car Amplifiers:
The following diagram shows how the voltage could drop if the alternator's regulator couldn't react quickly enough to prevent a voltage drop. You should notice that the capacitor is not connected. The white line is the alternator's regulated voltage (approximately 13.8 volts). The dips are where the current draw is high. The deeper dips are points where the current draw is even higher.

The diagram below shows what a large capacitor is supposed_to_do for a car audio system. You can see how the ripple is reduced now that the capacitor is connected. The dips in voltage are smaller. If the capacitor does its job, the added voltage (less voltage drop means higher voltage available to the amplifier) would give you more power output, especially with amps with unregulated power supplies. You probably noticed that I said 'supposed_to_do' earlier. This is because there has been some discussion as to whether a capacitor is a help or a hinderence when it comes to keeping the voltage at a higher level than without it. Of course, if you ask someone that's spent more than $100 on a capacitor if it helped, they'll tell you that it has. Why on earth would someone 'fess up' to wasting that much money on 'snake oil'. I've yet to see a capacitor make an audible difference.

NOTORIOUS VR
02-25-2008, 06:02 PM
not too thread jack Romaz, but do you guys know how to get rid of sound gains? it sounds like a supercharger installed in my car lol.

it's known as a ground loop. I'd make sure everything in your car is grounded well. Most of the time the ground loop starts at the head unit.

NOTORIOUS VR
02-25-2008, 06:05 PM
another thread about capacitors... again most people will say all they do is look important, and waste your money.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/409374.html

and another:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/452834.html


HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.

$500bimmer
02-25-2008, 07:55 PM
I personally run both.

I have an spl batt (cant remember the name) its huge 75-80lbs....as well as a 2-farad cap. I agree that caps can be put in just as a "band-aid" for power loss from stereos. Same thing with huge batteries. In order to actually have sufficient power for your stereo system you have to upgrade your alternator. Yes you can be fine forever on you stock alt. yes you can be fine on just a bat and/or cap.

It really depends on how big your stereo is and how well you charging system is.

And YES every single stereo shop or audio person will have a different opinion.
Just as life. You choose what you think works best for you.

Mickey Knox
02-25-2008, 11:04 PM
another thread about capacitors... again most people will say all they do is look important, and waste your money.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/409374.html

and another:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/452834.html

I never really said the work, but they dont do what you describe, IF there was surge big enought o drain your cap, then that would mean your battery/alt doesnt get enough juice to the amp. if you say your battery and alt are beefy enough and all you need then yes, you wont see a difference. i was simply describing the physics behind caps. i havent done the math, could well be that for this application 1200 farad would be required to work correctly, which would be about the size of a fridge. it cant see it make things worse though.

propr'one
02-26-2008, 01:30 AM
ok, the claim that cap's do nothing is nothing short of _****ING RETARDED_ and it is very easy to test this yourself. If your interior lights dim when your sub hits, and you put a cap in, and they dont. it works. I have a cap in my bmw, VERY obvious difference.

If you BLOW your cap, then you have a shitty capacitator, or the wrong farad rating cap. Has nothing to do with cap's not working, it has to do with you buying shitty caps.

NOTORIOUS VR
02-26-2008, 07:52 AM
ok, the claim that cap's do nothing is nothing short of _****ING RETARDED_ and it is very easy to test this yourself. If your interior lights dim when your sub hits, and you put a cap in, and they dont. it works. I have a cap in my bmw, VERY obvious difference.

If you BLOW your cap, then you have a shitty capacitator, or the wrong farad rating cap. Has nothing to do with cap's not working, it has to do with you buying shitty caps.

I seen almost every car I've seen that has a cap their light still dim since you're not addressing the actual power issue.

it's not ****ing retarded... it's just how it is... Caps are worthless. But enjoy your waste of money for what it is I guess *wave*

INFAMOU$
02-26-2008, 09:04 AM
How about you just buy an efficient amp that isn't power hungry on your car.. First sign of a shitty amp is one that says it puts out all kinds of power yet has like 6 - 40amp fuses down the side.. Most amps on the market today are garbage.. An old Soundstream amp rated at 25w x2 brigeable down to 1/4" ohm stable for 1000w is where it's at ;)

Back when car audio was actually made for quality!
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Soundstream_Reference_Class_A_10.0/

NOTORIOUS VR
02-26-2008, 09:59 AM
I agree stay away from the made in china crap... but you have to be careful with some of the oldschool amps, as they can be VERY power hungry as well.

I'm a long time Stephen Mantz fan.... I'm actually going to purchase his current mono block (Minilith). And then maybe replace my older 4ch Planet Audio with his 4ch as well with the burr brown upgrade :)

Romaz
02-27-2008, 05:15 PM
So anyone know of a place that rebuilds alternators?

Mickey Knox
02-27-2008, 05:28 PM
PSA: if you do change your alternator (valeo to bosch) make sure you get the pulley as well. the valeo one dont fit the bosch alt and vise versa

Romaz
02-28-2008, 01:30 PM
PSA: if you do change your alternator (valeo to bosch) make sure you get the pulley as well. the valeo one dont fit the bosch alt and vise versa

I just wanna rebuild mine to 200amp